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US Political Humor on Ortega and IranSubmitted by fyl on 7 June, 2007 - 06:20.
London-based IranMania reports on what two objective US Congresscritters from Florida think of Ortega's trip to Iran.
The representatives seem to be able to toss in Chavez and being part of this bad trio (guess Kaddaffi didn't make the list this year) and Iran's nuclear program. Seems like another perfect example of the problems with people that can't look beyond their own re-election every two years. Let's see,
Oh, maybe the dire memories Mack is talking about is the Iran-Contra affair. ( categories: )
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amount gone up?
http://www-usa.laprensa.com.ni/archivo/2007/noviembre/10/noticias/ultima...
this is where violetta.....
this is where violetta withdrew the demands of the court.
http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/70/6483.pdf
and i found something of the 300 million...
XII. The claim for reparation (paras. 283 to 285)
The Court is requested to adjudge and declare that compensation is due to Nicaragua, the quantum thereof to be fixed subsequently, and to award to Nicaragua the sum of 370.2 million US dollars as an interim award. After satisfying itself that it has jurisdiction to order reparation, the Court considers appropriate the request of Nicaragua for the nature and amount of the reparation to be determined in a subsequent phase of the proceedings. It also considers that there is no provision in the Statute of the Court either specifically empowering it or debarring it from making an interim award of the kind requested. In a cases in which one Party is not appearing, the Court should refrain from any unnecessary act which might prove an obstacle to a negotiated settlement. The Court therefore does not consider that it can accede at this stage to this request by Nicaragua.
about this judgment...
being a lawyer, i did very little research: the original ruling by the world court was something like 250 million dollars to be payed to nicaragua. The us never agreed to this.
violeta barrios de chamorro cancelled the debt by the us to nicaragua when she was elected.
daniel ortega, when elected this round, said the us owed nicaragua 1.7 billion dollars. nicanet and several other websites changed the amount to 17 billion dollars. Why? i suspect because they cannot read spanish and/or dont understand big numbers. (i don't understand big numbers either, i am a lowly county employee.)
over the past 16 years the us has given over 1.8 billion dollars worth of support to nicaragua "as a friend". not because the us owes them anything (because the us doesnt legally or morally owe them anything.) ken ye.
midnight oil rules and i have kinda small apples!
in espanol
from, La Prensa, 18 April 2007.
Quote: Ortega se refirió a los "ataques terroristas" de Estados Unidos durante los años 80, cuando los sandinistas, apoyados por la extinta Unión Soviética y Cuba, y la "Contra" libraron una guerra civil en esta nación centroamericana.
Según el mandatario, esos ataques causaron pérdidas a Nicaragua por 1,700 millones de dólares.
"Por eso yo digo que cuando Estados Unidos nos manda algo (ayuda) lo que está haciendo es abonando la deuda que tiene pendiente", dijo Ortega.
simple math multiply 1700 x 1,000,000 = 1.7 billion
La Prensa from 2007?
Not sure why you would pick an article in La Prensa from this year as an authority. There is a lot of information about the decision out there (including the actual case here but little about the amount as it was not part of the case itself.
The book I have that would have the number is actually incorrectly bound and is missing about 20 pages that would include it. But, here are two places with numbers.
Foundation for Sustainable Development
From Envio:
The Envio article (which is available in Spanish, English and Italian) explains the discrepancy between the $17 billion figure and the $12 billion figure you hear.
It is not clear how Chamorro had the power to drop this but it is generally felt that this was a trade for the US creating UNO. In any case, if Chamorro could "forgive" the debt, it seems like another president could "un-forgive" it.
fyl, i think you might....
find this authoritative. it is a harvard law journal article from lawyers involved in the case. interesting reading. page 47 or so says the case on damages was never heard. http://www.fhe.com/files/tbl_s47Details%5CFileUpload265%5C76%5CNicaragua...
oh yea,
they (the lawyer writing the article) represented nicaragua against the evil empire. i enjoyed reading it. even though i like that reagan changed the world, seems like the law wasn't their strong suit. but, i surmise from the article, the damages have been paid! communism is no longer the threat to world security, radical islam is!
It wasn't
The US, after offering a few hundred excuses who the World Court wouldn't have jurisdiction than bailed before the trial. The US General Assembly then voted in favor of supporing the result. The vote was "everyone else" to 3 where the three were the US, El Salvador and Israel.
The damages number is an assessment by the Nicaraguan government. It is certainly up for debate but the $17 billion number was what they arrived at. Not $250 million, or $1.7 billion.
One of the interesting statements on page 47 was about the election/election results. The FSLN was very confident it would win because the opposition was all over the political map. I forget the exact numbers but there were over 20 parties with about 1/3 to the left of the FSLN, 2/3 to the right.
The US "created" a united opposition (UNO) by offering support to the parties that joined together. Calling UNO a coalition was just not the case--it was a group of vested interests (all over the political spectrum) that decided they wanted to get something for free. I believe 17 parties joined UNO but, after the election, UNO was no longer.
and what resources do
and what resources do Nicaragua have in that triangle of evil?
What Enemies does Nicaragua have?
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who attended the seen-off ceremony, told reporters that there is no obstacle to develop cooperation between the two countries adding that the Iranian nation fully supports Nicaraguan independence, dignity and development.
Iran and Nicaragua stand shoulder to shoulder and their enemies should know that they can do nothing against them. The enemies should respect the will of nations and yield to them, he said.
The Coalitions that began
The Coalitions that began with Chavez in Venezuela and spread to most of Latin America now seems to be embracing countries in the middle east also. The light shining on the darkness of Bush and the Neocons
usa is not the enemy....
of nicaragua. fsln may percieve them to be.
Enemy may be too strong a word...
... historical enemy with a LOT of history. Very bad interfering so-called friend. Overweening stern step dad. Always-right big stick wielding micromanager of Nicaraguan affairs.
But all of those are a bit long winded. Enemy is incorrect but encapsulates the relationship more or less for those that don't want long explanations.
Pay the World Court adjudication, Apologize for past interferences, promise to keep out of our affairs in the future and maybe we can be proper friends.
Come on USA, be the kind, supportive, respectful, warmhearted and generous brother and friend that Central America needs so badly.
Tony X Robins, Jinotega
Our?
Since when are YOU a citizen of Nicaragua? You've been there how many months now? Ridiculous...
*
*
Maybe it's different
Maybe back in Somoza's and your time here, newcomers weren't treated like they belonged. However I, for one, feel welcomed and accepted as a part of Nicaragua.
I also end up in conversations talking about the US--a country north of here--that tends to meddle in the affairs of Nicaragua and other countries.
So, at least for me, Nicaragua is our country. If I didn't, I wouldn't be trying to do things to help "us".
so, we don't....
send enough money? do you know how much we send to central america?
CIA factbook 2006 estimates Nicaragua rx $471Million ...
... in aid from all countries and sources.
$41,390,000 from USAID in 2006 (budget 48mil 2008)
That makes USAID about how much Reagan gave the Contras per year adjusted for inflation. And makes it considerably short of the $12 billion estimated war reparations.
Or only 8 times what the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg gave Nicaragua in 2007
well, judge, how you like them apples? Pretty small, aren't they?
Tony X Robins, Jinotega
maybe i am too humble....
but i don't look a gift horse in the mouth. from phrases.org, "This comes into the category of phrases called proverbs, that is, 'short and expressive sayings, in common use, which are recognized as conveying some accepted truth or useful advice'.
As horses age their teeth begin to project further forward each year and so their age can be estimated by checking how prominent the teeth are. This incidentally is also the source of another teeth/age related phrase - long in the tooth.
The advice given in the 'don't look...' proverb is: when given a present, be grateful for your good fortune and don't look for more by examining it to assess its value."
any time someone helps me, i thank them over and over again. a thankful heart is a happy heart. and speaking of hearts, apples are heart healthy! and i got some pretty small apples, but i am thankful for them. brother, go in peace to love and serve the lord.
gift horse or trojan horse.
Your neighbor (USA) destroys your car (Nicaraguan economy) so you take him to court (IJC) which finds him guilty. He (Reagan) declares the court doesnt apply to him. You appeal and the supreme court (United Nations) takes the case. But your neighbor just happens to have veto power so you lose there as well. Then he gives you a couple DVDs for Christmas.
You should be grateful for the DVDs? You are outta your mind.
I lived in Texas for 15 years and didn't meet ANYONE who would say thanks for the DVDs. I met a lot who would have ruined your SUV.
Tony X Robins, Jinotega
One error
The US vetoed the "appeal" in the Security Council but it was voted on in the General Assembly. Only three countries voted against Nicaragua: the US, El Salvador and Israel.
very interesting.....
i had to scratch my head when i saw el salvador. but, didn't nicaragua smuggle guns to the el salvador guerrillas/communists? to get equity, you must do equity.
my whole point to tony (my brother in christ) robbins was that the damages had been paid to/accepted by chammoro. and the amount was 200 - 300 million. not 170 billion.
Didn't you read the case?
The paper you pointed me to talked about that. The FMLN had helped the FSLN. In return, the FSLN supplied arms to the FMLN but cut that off in January 1981 (I believe that was the date--it is in the paper).
That said, the only reason the FMLN hadn't overthrown the puppet government in El Salvador was US military aid to them. They were certainly in no position to vote against the US, even if they felt it was the right thing to do.
As for Chamorro being so "nice" to the US, it was clearly that. Or, well, clearly in return for her new job/expected benefits from the US. (Note that I don't mean that she personally expected to benefit from the deal. I don't know but expect she felt this sell-out was in the best interest of Nicaragua.)
If you do some basic arithmetic on the facts (for example, 1/3 of the bridges in Nicaragua destroyed, fuel storage facility in Corinto burned, damage to electrical infrastructure, ...), toss in loss of human life, military expenses, ... you quickly see a few hundred million as being a joke.
Thus, a minor investment in creating UNO and getting Chamorro elected by the US government had a huge payoff. I suppose that is what capitalism is all about but it would be nice if these kinds of games could be confined within the borders of the US and boardrooms of Enron, et al rather than exported to other nations.
Note that you just put the decimal point in the wrong place--$17 billion, not $170 billion.
yes, i was
pointing that out for those that didn't. even though the cia rep that testified that it had stopped in '81, el salvador still held a grudge? pretty interesting. i glossed over who voted against nica.
i think it says in the judgment that usa is not responsible for all acts of the contras. moreover, i was pointing out that damages were paid, i think the legal term is accord and satisfaction. i say think, bc i am not an international law expert. in the grand scheme of things, i am a blue collar lawyer.
David McMichael
(Note that this case is not new to me. I probably knew more about it 20+ years ago.)
I am sure McMichael held a grudge if that is the right word for noticing that "your boss" is doing something illegal. But, he also makes the point that with all the US monitoring of the area and the fact that there is no land border between El Salvador and Nicaragua, if there was any significant level of arms trafficking going on, the US would know.
As for what McMichael, John Stockwell, and other ex-CIA have to say, I see the basic issue is that it is hard to take the high moral ground for your cause when you violate your own laws as well as international law in the name of "freedom". Saying, for example, that the FSLN was genocidal when your boys were and you know it, doesn't help your case.
you obviously...
know the facts a lot better than i. i learned a lot in this process bc tony challenged me to the size of my apples and how much the usa had repaid.
$370,200,000 dollars, paid, see chamorrow
US technically only owes Nicaragua $370,200,000 dollars and not $17 billion dollars.
Document link
USA doesnt send what it owes us.
Aid is appreciated. Failure to pay adjudicated fines is not what friends do to friends. Confusing the 2 is convenient for USA but fools nobody. Pay up.
Tony X Robins, Jinotega
us, you mean nicaragua.....
unless you are a citizen of nicaragua, right? i don't have cash, will you take a check? i would like to know dollar amounts. how much does usa give in charity and how much is "owed" as determined by a court of competent jurisdiction. since usa is a sovereign nation, a court of competent jurisdiction would be a usa district court. are you referring to some world court composed of liberals or tin horn dictators? sorry if i am not a fan of the un or some world court.
USA accepted the IJC judgements from Truman...
... until Reagan. Reagan pulled USA out of the IJC. Presumably when there was fear of judgements going against the US, as indeed they did.
My status here is not relevant. Gracias.
Pay the debt. stop mincing words. USA helped destroy a country, the USA needs to pay up.
Your legal knowledge leaves something to be desired. A foreign power prosecuting the US government in a federal district court? Only if we wanted to start a new show on Comedy Central.
Tony X Robins, Jinotega
my brother....
sometimes the visiting team has to play an away game. on us home turf. if the world does not grant or deny you success or happiness; and you do that to yourself based on your perception of your place in the world, what if you're wrong in that perception?
usa took a country....
called usa. should the usa give it back? this is a world goverened by the violent use of force. reminds me of a song, from midnight oil, one my favorite leftist commie rock groups:
Out where the river broke The bloodwood and the desert oak Holden wrecks and boiling diesels Steam in forty five degrees
The time has come To say fair's fair To pay the rent To pay our share The time has come A fact's a fact It belongs to them Let's give it back
How can we dance when our earth is turning How do we sleep when our beds are burning
Four wheels scare the cockatoos From Kintore East to Yuendemu The western desert lives and breathes In forty five degrees
I think Iran needs political
I think Iran needs political support to send its message to the world (that its legal right of Iran to produce nuclear power and so on...) and some votes in UN and other international organizations to avoid isolation of the country.
Nicaragua already has some debts to Iran (meaning that the commerce might not be the thing Ahmadinejad want). Ahmadinejad has told past debt will not slow down future cooperations. They are now talking about building a Gas electrical power plant for Nicaragua by Iran. I think they are trying to pay for the political support Nicaragua is going to provide Iran.
I think the price is not low for Nicaragua. In this bad situation of Iran, Nicaragua will be hit by Western media.
-------
Iran and Nicaragua have some similarities in their histories. Both had a revolution in 1979, people in both countries feel the same about the revolution and now ...
i thought building a nuke plant....
in texas for power was insane just like building a nuke plant for power in iran is insane. now if iran is building nukes for bombs i think siamak, you have described ahmadenijad as a mad man. another reason to stop iran from getting nukes.
You may know that Iran
You may know that Iran despite being an oil producer has serious energy problems. Starting from last month cars have a daily allowance of Petrol (4 litre/day). Everyone should use a smart card in Petrol stations.
Currently Iran exports 4 million bl/day of oil. It might be interesting to you that currently 7 million bl/day is being consumed inside the country. According calculations , in next 5 years Iran will have no oil to export!!!
So according above obvious justifications production of nuclear power makes sense. (we had started our first nuclear power plant 30 years ago, which is now being completed by Russians).
But regarding Ahmadinjead, yes he is mad, but the defense force is not under his control. Defense ministry under his control just provides logistics. Defense force takes commands from Khamenei (the supreme leader). He has been the president of Iran 20 years ago for 8 years. Normally leader is a well established person.
The obvious thing here is that Israel has 200-300 nukes and even a mad man does not attack such a country. Actually no country might use nuke other than US. They have done it twice and it makes no difference for them.
By the way I forgot to say,
By the way I forgot to say, in My opinion Nicaragua should only accept to have relations with Iran (i.e political) if Iran agrees to give a decent help in response. I mean at least $250 milion worth of help including industrial/economical/educational etc.
Iran has spent $500 milion in afghanistan (roads, fiber optic and communications, helth etc.). Iran has also started a car production line in venezuela ( this company http://www.ikco.com ) which will produce 10,000 Samand cars a year in venezuela.
Ortega should be wise (now that he not been wise enough by joining Iran ) to ask for such decent helps.
Siamak
I agree with you about the
I agree with you about the comments but This ahmadinejad is a totla jerk which has ruined everything in this country in just 2 years. He has spent $60 bilion to bring a 25% inflation in just 1 year (40% in two years). While were doing quite good in Khatami's period. He ruined every thing including freedoms, reputation of the country, economy, industry, university research funds, stock,...
I don't know what these guys think (Ortega, ...) that come and join this jerk...
One of you tell me what is the relation of holocust with Iran that my country should pay such cost on it just because this mad man wants to rant about it.
By the way when Arabs themselves like peace with israel , why persian iranians should stand against it and pay costs?
Anyway...
Siamak
-------
Iran and Nicaragua have some similarities in their histories. Both had a revolution in 1979, people in both countries feel the same about the revolution and now ...
Shatori
What is the feeling on the ground in Iran? No matter how much they disagree with ahmadinejad the people will pull together in the event of an outside interference in iran (War or other)...
What use is Nicaragua to Iran?
Iranian are proud of their
Iranian are proud of their history and proved to be a united nation in hard times. I think Ahmadinejad is trying to exploit this to his profit. If there is a treat then people will put the defense of the country on priority and forget their problem with Ahmadinejad.
For the same reason it is always being told that putting pressure on Iran will make Hardliners more and more powerful and this will remove every remaining freedom and positive changes happened during Khatami's period back to 20 years ago.
US and west are using Iran to frighten Arab countries and sell them warfares. They have sold more than $500 billion during last few years to the Arab states of Persian Golf.
The fear has caused Arab states to bring US to their country and give their control to them. Then You might understand the dirty play happening here.
They have occupied Afghanistan to reach China's borders with a same method (fear of Alkaeeda). They now have a country right under China's nose.
The big plan is to occupy entire middle east (specially now that oil has become such a precious resource) and Iran despite the help it provides for selling arms to Arabs , has become a problem.
-------
Iran and Nicaragua have some similarities in their histories. Both had a revolution in 1979, people in both countries feel the same about the revolution and now ...
have heard it reported....
that ahmadenijad wants the return of the 12th imam, aka armegedon. and he thinks it's his place to hasten that ending of the world. have you heard that while in iran?
The same some Christians
The same some Christians think Jesus will return and make the world peaceful, Shi-ites think their 12th Imam will come some day.
Armageddon!!! Where this name comes from? The name is Mahdi. The son of 11th Imam hide after his father was killed by the ruler in his time. Shi-ites think he is alive and will return and make the world the most peaceful place. There are too many things quoted from previous Imams (almost all of the 11 Imam had told about the hiding of the 12th Imam during their life) about Mahdi.
It's not only Ahmadinejad but also all the 12 Imam Shi-ites (almost 100-150 milion) think the same. I am not sure hy this specific subject has been raised by western media. The Mahdi's subject has always been with Shi-ite Muslims since 1400 years ago. It's not new.
The only thing is that this Jerk mad man ahmadinejad is abusing the thing to fool people. He is trying to fool people by showing interest in their Hiden Imam! This mad man is abusing everything he finds, everything!
-------
Iran and Nicaragua have some similarities in their histories. Both had a revolution in 1979, people in both countries feel the same about the revolution and now ...
careful
Or you will get fire bombed by the hard core lefties on this site, like I have said before; its quite lovely to admire a "socialist" revolution, but from the safety of a capitalist/democratic country. Thats why I will never respect those so called intellectual left wingers, they praise and admire Cuba's totalitarian system (and other socialist countries) while living in the Netherlands, Spain , England. Don't insult my intelligence please, if you truly desire such a system for all of us go live there and STAY there, lets see how you like the (censorship) muzzle in your mouth.
do you like ALL right wing solutions?
I don't like ALL solutions of either the right or the left. I tend to favor the left-ish policies over the right most of the time but to call me a commie, leftie or socialist would be a bit far out.
As for Arab politics - I have absolutely nothing to say.
American British, French interference in Middle East politics, sure, I have opinions. I feel sorry for them having to pick up after the mess we-all made. I feel sad that global communications is ramming western 'civilization' down the throats of a medieval society and can understand them getting twisted up about it. I feel for them that various parties see them as an inconvenient bunch of people sitting on top of a pile of oil. We all know the American / Indian / Oklahoma solution that America has enacted in the past but cannot enact in the Middle East. Its all a bit sad. I don't have solutions or opinions outside of these fairly self evident ones that I'm sure any thinking person would already acknowledge.
So... I'm not a leftie and Arab politics is someone elses ball game.
Tony X Robins, Jinotega
No Phil
What the congressmen are trying to say by "dire memories" is what happened to the NICARAGUAN people during the 80's, I am sure I don't have to remind you how exemplary the Ortega "administration" behaved during those golden years in my native country....right?
sarcasm aside maybe you truly think the 80's were sort of a golden period in the history of my poor country?
I certainly do not
Pick your favorite side to dislike. I happen to have copies of over 600 Witness for Peace reports of Contra atrocities during the 1980s. They are very specific and certainly not pretty. But, trying to pin the blame on one side is out of line.
Historically, we have lots of examples. On the other side of the world, Vietnamese resisting the invasion of their country. Or, take the invasion of Iraq. All, along with the US war on Nicaragua are good examples of how you give both sides an excuse to do bad things.
Nicaragua has resources?
Pol Pot, Hitler, Gengis Khan, Mao Tse Tung and Stalin may have been tyrants with resources. Daniel is just not in that league.
For a US congressman to accuse 'my' president of being a tryrant is normal politikin'. But to say Nicaragua has resources is just plain wrong. Shows a lack of knowledge and research.
A tyrant would attack other countries without declaration of war, imprison without trial, torture, spy on its own subjects, manipulate and destroy other countries, use capital punishment, and restrict the movements of its own people. Daniel is innocent of most of those charges. Tyrant? I dont think he is anywhere close. And resources? That must have been a slip of the tongue.
Tony X Robins, Jinotega
....
Daniel innocent of THOSE charges?? torture? imprison without trial?? spy on its own people??? during the 80's the CDS (Sandinista committees) were formed by the Sandinista government as a way to spy on the general population (neighbors spying on neighbors, friends on friends, family on family). THOUSANDS of citizens were rounded up by Ortega's brutal henchman Lenin Cerna (head of the reviled seguridad del estado) they were TORTURED, and IMPRISONED for no reason or just because they fell afoul of the local Sandinista(s) sycophants , their human rights violated by that monster. The newspaper LA PRENSA was censored and closed several times by Ortega and the Sandinista junta, freedom of speech did not exist in the 80s, as for capital punishment Lenin Cerna just (very conveniently) "dissapeared" those labeled enemies of the revolution (who could have been anyone, himself or his cronies didn't like!) I have yet to see someone from that era (a Nicaraguan that ACTUALLY lived in Nicaragua in the 80's during the Sandinista government) post something in favor of those commie pigs.
Gee...Danny Boy was gentle before?
Before the election in 1990, imprisoning,torturing and killing ploitical prisoners in the Esteli prison, burning two pastors to death before their congregations, raping the country financially, making children spy on their parents, thats DO's legacy, what a sweet, benevolent man.
I was being humorous. guess you didn't get it.
Name me a country that supports torture, political prisoners, imprisonment without trial, kidnapping presidents of other countries, pre-emptive invasion, stockpiling chemical weapons, spying on its citizens, attacking non-neighboring states without declaration of war, ruining other countries economic and political infrastructure, failing to pay world court ajudicated fines, failing to acknowledge global warming.
Give up? Final clue - demonstrated usage of nuclear devices.
Before everyone rants, don't attack ME for saying it. This stuff is undeniably true.
Tyrants: GWB 600,000 dead Iraquis last 2 years. Daniel Ortega ????? dead 20 years ago. may I politely point out that 20 years ago GWB was on alcohol and cocaine. If you cannot accept DO has changed then I cannot accept that GWB has changed. Cant have it both ways.
Tony X Robins, Jinotega