Ortega = Sinister St. Nick?... 1982
Submitted by pinoleroafm on Fri, 2006/07/14 - 12:03.
Just something interesting I ran across.
"CPDH acusa a Fiscalía de encubrir a Ortega" http://www.laprensa.com.ni/archivo/2006/julio/14/noticias/ultimahora/130...
The NGO CPDH, Commission for Civil Rights, accused the Public Ministry for covering up "genocides and crimes against humanity supposedly committed by ex president Daniel Ortega and 15 others against miskito natives during the 1980."
The article goes on to describe the "red Christmas" of 1982, in which 8,500 indigenous tribesmen (and women) were forced out of their communities by the Río Coco.. During this time, the article claims, "a total of 64 people were murdered, 13 were tortured, and 15 were missing in Miskito comunities located in the country's Northern Caribbean coast."
Maybe some of the members living in that region of the country can give some insight.
** Maybe they needed some more red pigment for their flag? ** Let's hope not, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Just a thought..
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WHOEVER DEFENDS DANIEL ORTEGA IS AN IDIOT!
WHOEVER DEFENDS DANIEL ORTEGA IS AN IDIOT! Or maybe they are getting benefits from the Sandinistas...
This is the problem
Take this statement and replace Daniel Ortega with your least favorite political figure. On my list would be George HW Bush, George W Bush, Ronald Reagan, Adolph Hitler and a lot more.
What they all have in common (with the possible exception of George W Bush) is that they all got elected. So, I guess there are a lot of idiots out there and that is just based on my list.
In any case, if you want to be constructive, offer some facts. If you want to babble and can't restrain yourself from wanting to do it where others can read it, I recommend your blog.
To your point (if you had one) I haven't seen anyone here defending Ortega. Have you? And, well, lots of people do get benefits from the Sandinistas. I do: I think the last two mayors here have been just fine. We have a lot more paved streets then when I moved here and new, asbestos-free water pipes.
Esteli could be better
Esteli could be better if we the engineers and other college educated Estilianos in the US & other places would invest in Estleli. However, there is the looming threat of the Sandinistas that have hurt us.
I don't think it's great that Esteli depends on NGO for survival. It should be self sustained. Esteli before the Sandinistas was an even better city than it is today. There was much more employment and education. I could post a graph showing how during the 70's Esteli was the fastest growing town in Nicaragua.
Also everyone should know that Esteli was always liberal and progressive way back before any Sandinista ever showed up. It was during Zelaya's presidency and with the help of the education minister from Esteli that the town began to focus on educating it's citizens. Zelaya sent for Jesuit educators from Guatemala to teach in Esteli. Some of us studied in the schools that were a result of that, such as el San Pancho. That is the root of Esteli's progress, not so much governship of the Sandinistas. And from my understanding these are moderate Sandinistas who run Esteli without political party distinctions. Although there are Danielista elements, unfortunately.
Thx for your input
"I don't think it's great that Esteli depends on NGO for survival."
- I agree, but a nation that was destroyed by wolves draped in red and black robes doesn't have a choice.. It's default risk is exorbitant, hence the reason for a non-existent bond market (which could help inject capital). Additionally, as you state, "the looming threat of the Sandinistas that [has] hurt [Estelí]," as Estelí investors are putting money into other departments and even countries. Rather than invest capital into employment-generating enterprises and focus on profit earning, they limit their earnings growth by keeping money in CDs, which earn them 4-6%, depending on the amount.... IT ALL GOES BACK, however, to the aforementioned wolves.. Since Esteli's red/black stuttering leader's driving the city to the ground, Esteli's own money's vanishing to other departments (and/or countries).
Which brings me to another point you touch upon:
Estelí was very wealthy during Somoza's time, despite the fact that the man was "audaciously corrupt," as a certain leftist author, one that someone quoted in another posting, claimed. When Don Francísco (Chico) Moreno ran the city, Estelí flourished, with powerful tobacco magnates (Daniel Rodríguez, for instance, set up shop here- for cigar buffs, he's the one credited with developing the 'corojo' wrapper in Cuba), Coffee traders (Don 'Mundo' Delgado and Pastor Midence), and retail shops (Don Alfredo Lanuza ring bells?).. It was self-sustained.. That's not the case now because such people's relatives have been scared away (with the exception of the Tip-Top restaurant that was recently opened- which is Estelí capital).
- Point well taken, however.
It's a general statement
It's a general statement because I don't want to insult any one person directy. I just want those individuals who do support Daniel Ortega to know what I think. The main trigger for my general statement is the fact that some people in this site seem to defend Daniel. In this thread it is implied that it might not have been the Sandinista (Daniel's) fault that the Miskito left, rather that the Miskito left because it was their choice. This effects me because my family had to leave due to the Sandinistas and earlier on when this forum was started it was implied or directly stated that we who left were "cowards," and that it was our choice. So it has been a reocurring theme.
My postings here reflect a search for the truth about Nicaragua. I have offered facts before to give people different perspectives on the country's politics, culture, history, etc. I have done it with the sole purpose of helping those who are intersted in knowing more about Nicaragua and to discuss with others my thought to achive an understanding, to come to a conclusion which ultimately helps us to move back.
I am the type of person, like others here that reasearches before they take action (move back) and this is part of my research. So why can't I post on this forum? I have a blog is simply a place for news and links about Nicaragua that do not come from Cuba nor Venezuela and that give a more positive spin to what is occurring there. It is not a forum.
I could post many facts just like I have been doing but it's not just about facts, its about the experiences that people have suffered through because of the Sandinistas and that one fears may occur again. Because that is clearly one of the main concerns about living in Nicaragua. If this forum is about anti us sentiment then it should not be named nica living. Nicaragua politics has nothing to do with US politics and Nicaragua should not be used as a pawn against the US government, Bush, Hitler, etc because what you are ultimately doing is hurting Nicaragua for the satisfaction of ridiculing the US. And that is not very fair for the rest of us. Ortega does concern Nicaragua and we can talk about him and his actions because he is out there running loose. Ultimately, Bush will leave office but Ortega seems to stick around.
And in relation to this post, the Miskito left because they did not want to die, just like we left because we did not want to die. They did not want to be part of the Sandinista plan and neither did we. And some people didn't leave, at least Esteli from what I recall in my childhood. Some people committed suicide rather than fight with the Sandinistas. That's a fact that may seem irrational to you but to them it was unquestionably the right thing to do.
My Running Statements
Everyone has opinions and I have mine. Everyone can post what they want with opinions; therefore, I should be able to post what I want.
We will have no vulgarity nor vulgar name calling on "NL".
I will tell everyone right now that I will never leave Nicaragua. From natural causes or warfare; I will only go three blocks down the street to the cementary.
I tell my wife (Marisol) and also my accountant/lawyer (Gamboa) when they ask me some question to simply do what they want. I don't care one way or the other.
I feel the same way about the Miskito people and many are part of my family who left in the Sandinista takeover to go to Honduras. i don't care about their decision.
I feel the same way about the other Nicaraguan people who left and went wherever in the Sandinista takeover. I don't care how or why the decision was made. Whatever those people wanted to do was fine with me.
Nobody ever addresses this scenario; but, a certain part of families left and some others in the family who could have gone decided to stay and fight for their respective sides and ideals.
Brothers/sisters fought brothers/sisters.
In the "War of Northern Agresson"; brothers fought brothers.
Personal Choice.
Miskito Alan ®
Should?
You say
Possibly you mean "should have nothing to do with US politics"? Nicaragua, like all so many other countries, have been used as pawns by what was the superpowers as well as "US farms" by the US. I agree this shouldn't be happening but it does. The CIA overthrowing the Arbenz government in Guatemala in 1954 is the clearest example of a Central American nation being a victim of US big business (United Fruit) and the US government doing the dirtywork.
Now, if pointing out how Nicaragua is a victim of the politics of another country is hurting Nicaragua then I guess Nicaragua just needs to surrender and ask the US to adopt it as a state. Of course, that probably won't work. Take Puerto Rico as an example. It has all the responsibilities of statehood but with no representation, no labor laws, ...
Right now, the US is relatively busy with other nations--it has a Viet Nam-like mess in Iraq to deal with, problems with "bad Communists" in North Korea (vs. "good Communists" in China that produce most "US" goods), a nationlist government in Venezuela that is unsympathetic to the US who used up all its oil, a nationlist government in Bolivia that is unsympathetic that the US is using up all its natural gas and some fairly big industrialized nations in South America that are "not cooperating".
So, maybe Nicaragua is safe for a while. But, it seems important to recognize that the US government doesn't "look out for" Nicaragua. It merely uses it when it is convenient.
As for "Bush leaving office", it is much more like Nixon is still in office. Clearly, Dick Cheney, a Nixon leftover (and others) are making policy and have been for 35 years. So, the difference is that Ortega continues to be an important political figure in Nicaragua but, in the US, the "front man" changes but policies tend to remain the same.
Finally, your "It's a general statement because I don't want to insult any one person directy." statement is a bit strange. You are saying you would rather insult 30% of the Nicaraguan population than one person directly? Assuming there are Nicaraguans in Nicaragua reading this site (and I know there are), explaining what Ortega is or isn't doing and who would do someting different and why that is good would be useful.
For me living here, I know few people that want to vote for Daniel but a lot of people who want to vote for a Sandinista government. They seem like a good audience for some real information that could, for example, sway them to vote for the MRS.
The US is much more ethical
It's a globalized world of course there is interdependence between nations and it is a mistake to think that a small country like Nicaragua can have self protectionist policies and not be influenced by any other nation, including the US. The import substitution policies that were attempted in the Latin America (70's) have failed. It is better to export, sell and market the products and services of comparative advantage globally, like China and India have done. This has worked for centures and has taken hundreds of years to ralize. And one of the biggest buyers is the US. It is closest to Nicaragua and its is rich, it makes logical sense to do business with the US. It is also better for Nicaragua because the US is more ethical than other countries like China. China right now is doing business with dictatorships in Sudan and Angola that have atrocious human rights records and/or are not using oil proceeds to help their poor. The US is not doing business with them and oil prices continue to increase here.
Guatemala is much more different than Nicaragua. They might sound similar but about half the population of Guatemala is ingenous while in Nicaragua is more Mestizo or ladino. The geography and culture is different too, Guatemala has more Mexican influence (politically) and it is very mountanous, and lastly has more conservative roots from being the seat of government in the colonial days.
Venezuela, Cuba and Costa Rica are the countries that should stay out. Venezuela on route to become a failed petro state and Costa Rica historically has competed against Nicaragua. Those countries really do not have any interest in Nicaragua. They are much poorer than the US, they seek honor and riches at the expense of the country. They have helped the Sandinistas in the past/present.
What Ortega is doing wrong is not stepping down. He is not letting other people have a chance at rebuilding Nicaragua. He has not let go of the past and accepted his errors. His image polarizes Nicaraguans and makes the world see Nicargua as a dangerous place. He and his party are associated with anarchy, communism and incompetence. The party itself needs to let go of the ideologies of Mao Tse Tung that have failed in China. They need to think about their country instead of the international propagation of an failed ideology.
"The import substitution
"The import substitution policies that were attempted in the Latin America (70's) have failed. It is better to export, sell and market the products and services of comparative advantage globally, like China and India have done."
- Import substitution also failed in England prior to the industrial Revolution; economics, for its part, has proven such theories wrong. Good point.
- The "export-driven" model, as exemplified by the Asian Tigers, Singapore, Taiwan, South Korea, and Hong Kong, works in a country with a stable government (which drives country credit ratings higher), sound currency (i.e. little fluctuation), an educated workforce, and a pro-business set of laws, to name a few requirements. 'Uno no puede tapar el sol con un dedo' (One can't cover the Sun with one finger)... Nicaragua, as well as many other Latin American countries, clearly lacks the majority of these requirements; thus, adopting such a model's unrealistic in the near future.
The government's internal conflicts (i.e. Conflicts within parties- such as the creation of the "bancada blanca y azul" vs. "PLC;" or MRS vs. Bloody Shadow; parliament vs. Bolaños) clearly prove the instability Nicaragua's government experiences.
Currency- Why are their soo many new bills printed out? This obviously reduces the Córdoba's purchasing power... As a result, foreign firms are constantly affected by currency fluctuations, and many times prefer to deal with American dollars.
Educated Workforce: Despite the Bloody Shadow claim that they greatly improved Nicaragua's literacy rates (they didn't even increase this much), Nicaragua remains at the lower end (in a recent United Nations Development study, they were at 76.7%- only Guatemala with 69.1% and Haiti with 51.9% ranked lower) of the Latin American spectrum. Training becomes an issue, hence the reason for the zonas francas coming to Nicaragua, rather than technology plants.
Laws: Aguinaldo?! To me, this is the most ridiculous thing ever.. One month off for one year of work.. I can understand Germany and Sweden doing this, but Nicaragua? This clearly deters potential investors from investing in our beloved country.. The "diputados'" salaries and benefits (free gas and cars, all encompassed within their "dietas") are exorbitant given the country's situation. Yes, this problem persists in all of Latin America, but since Nicaragua's our homeland, country of residence, or both, this is why I'm bringing it up..
Nicaragua cannot adopt such a model if such things aren't changed..
Just a thought..
True but...
The export led model in the Asian tiger countries (Taiwan, Korea) started with exports of textile and other goods that did not require much education. The exports evolved, however, to include to electrical appliances and eventually automobiles such in Korea's case. Nicaragua was on it's way to becoming a tiger in the 70's as it's exports were begining to mature and there was even talk of assembling automobiles. Costa Rica is an example of what could of happened in Nicaragua, they started with maquiladoras and is now they are assembling Intel chips, their exports have evolved. Although I don't know how Nicargua's education system compared to CR's in the 70's but I suspect that it was pretty good since there were trade schools, etc and INCAE (affiliated with Harvard Business School) was headquartered in Managua.
It is true that Nicaragua may not start exporting automobiles and computers but it's exports can evolve like the Asian tiger's have evolved. Or better yet, Nicaragua can be clever and take a shortcut by attacting skilled workers and companies to set up shop. The lure is Nicaragua's major comparative advantages: it's natural beauty, it's friendly people, it's proximity to the US and other major markets, it's safety, relative stability and the fact that it's cheap.
It's not just about exporting (selling products abroad). Nicaragua can sell it's comparative advantages at home by attracting buyers to come and get it. And we are already seeing that, the problem is that politicians that run the country don't seem to realize this. Esteli authorities for example, should focus on hospitality, tourism, health care and not so much on agriculture. They need to hire plublic relation's specialists, english teachers, and tourism specialists because retirees are looking for cool weather, scenery and safety, and Esteli has that.
It would be nice if other people were able to contribute more to this topic. I know that there are people registered from India and China that may know more about this based on their experiences.
"The export led model in the
"The export led model in the Asian tiger countries (Taiwan, Korea) started with exports of textile and other goods that did not require much education" - You fail to mention that although they began their industrial evolution with these export types, they already had a pool of educated workers, something that Nicaragua unfortunately lacks. The transition to hi-tech production was relatively easy..
"Nicaragua was on it's way to becoming a tiger in the 70's as it's exports were begining to mature and there was even talk of assembling automobiles"
- Unfortunately, Nicaragua's economy, while booming during my General's time, was not maturing, as it was still agrarian based. Indeed, there were talks of assembling vehicles (in fact, there was a rudimentary vehicle that was assembled in Managua that went by the common name, "Pinolero," which was equipped with a Vauxhall engine), but nothing major materialized.. The pinolero 'died' soon after its creation. Nicaragua's economy was booming, but not maturing. Major difference... One point I do agree with, however, is that had such growth continued, then eventually the economy would've evolved.. But during that time, there was no indication that an economic evolution was taking place.
"It would be nice if other people were able to contribute more to this topic. I know that there are people registered from India and China that may know more about this based on their experiences"
- Nicaragua's problems are much different than China's and India's.. Both countries count on an immense pool of educated individuals that are willing to work as much as necessary to make ends meet.. Semana Santa, 10+ "días feriados," and the fact that (you're obviously from Estelí, so I'll state something that you've certainly seen) in Estelí more discos/bars and restaurants are opening than repair shops, for instance, clearly indicates that life is much more relaxed...
"It's not just about exporting (selling products abroad). Nicaragua can sell it's comparative advantages at home by attracting buyers to come and get it. And we are already seeing that, the problem is that politicians "
- Firstly, I think we all know what exporting is.. Secondly, your prior post made an insinuation that Nicaragua should be self-sustained via implementation of an "export-driven" economy, hence the reply. I agree, it's not just about "selling products abroad," but this is key.. Nicaragua has many other problems that must be addressed before an economic metamorphisis takes place(some of which you reiterate).. Without solving these problems, Nicaragua can't expect to sell its admittedly few "comparative advantages." Tenemos que ser realistas.
The surprising truth
"they already had a pool of educated workers, something that Nicaragua unfortunately lacks. The transition to hi-tech production was relatively easy.."
Actually, Taiwan's economy was destroyed during world war II and since they didn't have an educated pool they focused on labor intensive industries. "Export processing zones were established and labor-intensive manufactured goods became major export products in the 1960s and early 1970s."
It was only afterwards that the government encouraged education: "In order to provide the highly skilled manpower needed for economic development as well as increased educational opportunity, compulsory education was extended from six to nine years in 1968."
Furthermore: "From the mid-1960s to the mid-1970s, Taiwan shifted away from exporting agricultural products to industrial manufactured goods. During this period, vocational education was expanded to respond to the needs of developing industries. There were two avenues of expansion. One was to increase the number of students training in the vocational track (including vocational schools and five-year junior colleges) as opposed to those studying in high schools. The other was to build more vocational schools and five-year junior colleges, which have industry-oriented curricula. Unlike high schools aiming at college preparation, vocational schools cultivate skills needed in the current job market."
Source: http://www.cipe.org/publications/fs/ert/e22/tieE22.htm
Nicaragua had vocational schools since the 1950's before Taiwan: Antecedentes de la Formación Profesional en Nicaragua.
"Desde 1951 con la creación de las Escuelas Técnicas, Nicaragua se ubica entre las naciones de América Latina que priorizan la Educación Técnica Profesional de miles de adolescentes y jóvenes, necesitados de ingresar prontamente al mercado laboral"
"A partir de entonces se funda el Instituto Nacional Técnico Vocacional, Instituto Tecnológico Nacional de Granada, Instituto Politécnico La Salle de León, Centro Juvenil Don Bosco e Instituto Técnico Cristóbal Colón"
www.unanleon.edu.ni
Also in the 70's there was a large agriculture sector but also agro industry was flourishing.
Today Nicaragua offers an educated pool. The labor risk is the second lowest in Central America, probably lower than South American countries and even lower than India's.
Source: http://www.viewswire.com/index.asp?layout=RKCountryVW3&country_id=400000...
Esteli is among the best educated municipality in Nicaragua where literacy is over 90%. With many private universities. But there is unemployment. It one of the reasons they leave for other countries, usually the more educated leave.
Source:www.undp.org.ni
The main problem that Nicaragua, India and China have in common are poverty.
I consider myself a visionary not a realist for the most part.
Not as surprising as you might think....
"Taiwan's economy was destroyed during world war II and since they didn't have an educated pool they focused on labor intensive industries. "Export processing zones were established and labor-intensive manufactured goods became major export products in the 1960s and early 1970s."
- Firstly: History and I beg to differ.. Japan, which occupied such lands from 1895 - 1945, was very intent on increasing the productivity in Taiwan, and therefore had "attempted to use Taiwan as a model colony and were instrumental in the industrialization of the island...The Japanese extended the railroads and other transportation networks that had just sprung up during late Qing rule, built an extensive sanitation system and revised the public school system, among other things" (Overview of U.S. Policy Towards Taiwan. Press release). Also, an example of their technological advancement was the Sun Moon Lake Hydroelectric plant, for instance, that was completed between 1931-1934..
Thus, I fail to grasp the validity to the statement that "they didn't have an educated pool," because they did.. Now, Japan didn't do it to be benevolent; rather, they did it because they were resource-hungry from their Pacific Wars.. Also, their economy evolved alot faster than most countries; As mentioned in a Taiwanese publication," In terms of production value, by 1940, Taiwan’s industrial production was already 1.4 times that of its agricultural production, making Taiwan a fledgling industrialized society." Their economy became that way because the Japanese had laid the groundwork![ http://www.gio.gov.tw/taiwan-website/5-gp/history/tw07.html ]. So, even before WWII, Taiwan was doing very well, despite your claim.. This is the first time that I have read that the economy was destroyed, or obliterated.
So, history and the facts it brings to the table don't coincide with such statements.
With respect to our homeland, well, you still haven't refuted the fact that Nicaragua's economy was still agrarian-based, so the metamorphisis hadn't even started. In this respect, however, Nicaragua was faring very well. We established the INTA (instituto nacional de tecnología agricola and was known for being influential, particularly in Esteli, in the establishment of fantastically efficient tobacco fields, for instance), so we were doing very well...
"Today Nicaragua offers an educated pool. The labor risk is the second lowest in Central America, probably lower than South American countries and even lower than India's."
- I guess you didn't see in a prior posting that Nicaragua's literacy rate exceeds only Guatemala's and Haiti's.. I suppose that trying to refute a point also means failing to see clearly stated points.. No one is stating that Nicaragua's labor pool is uneducated; instead, what's being stated is that it ranks as one of the lowest in Latin America. The literacy rate, undoubtedly, is a key indication of a country's educational attainment. If the risk is "even lower than India's," then why is Bangalore home to many companies that have flocked there? Makes little sense..
"Esteli is among the best educated municipality in Nicaragua where literacy is over 90%. With many private universities. But there is unemployment. It one of the reasons they leave for other countries, usually the more educated leave."
- The key question is, why? Why is there unemployment? If Nicaragua's "labor risk is the second lowest in Central America," then why are the "more educated" "[leaving] for other countries?" The answer, I firmly believe, lies in the legislative system, work-ethic of many (most definitely not all), unstable government, and currency fluctuations, to name a few flaws. Until these flaws are rectified, the "more educated" will continue to flock as a result of this unemployment.
"I consider myself a visionary not a realist for the most part."
Theories are beautiful in a Utopian world. In a visionary world, Nicaragua would've never suffered when the Bloody Shadow reigned with an iron fist.. Just as communism "offers" equality to all those in a commune, the revolution was a "beautiful" thing.. Unfortunately, such systems are doomed to fail, mainly because of the innate human greed and avarice. Take three children and drop candies over the floor.. Pretty soon, you'll have them crying and pouting over who gets the most.. That's how we're wired since we're born. Thus, I would rather find a way of dealing with reality, rather than trying to hide in visions and theories. Nicaragua was triumphant with great leaders and has millions that would die for its "pendón bi-color," so hope's not lost. Hope's lost only when we refrain from accepting the harsh reality that surrounds us. Only by embracing this reality can we find a way out of this abyss.
...
"Thus, I fail to grasp the validity to the statement that "they didn't have an educated pool," because they did.. Now, Japan didn't do it to be benevolent; rather, they did it because they were resource-hungry from their Pacific Wars.."
You are just saying that the Japense laid the groundwork but you are not proving that there was "already an educated labor pool."
"Also, an example of their technological advancement was the Sun Moon Lake Hydroelectric plant, for instance, that was completed between 1931-1934.."
Well, Nicaragua had energy at that time, a hydroelectric plant was built at Apanas and another project, COPALAR was going to be built that would meet and exceed the needs of even today. There was also a plan to build a port in Monkey Point, the productive parts in Nicaragua where already interconnected. Howard Hughes was living in the intercontinental with plans to build a canal. It was too good to be true. Maybe the revolucion wasn't so pretty after all especially given the fact that it was war.
"What's being stated is that it ranks as one of the lowest in Latin America."
India only has 64% literacy rate. I am surprised because I thought that it was around 80% or more during the eighties and it sudden dropped so dramatically. Where those figures just made up or was the literacy that was taught of so poor quality that people quickly forgot how to read and write and teach their families?
"The key question is, why? Why is there unemployment?" I think it's because the focus was redirected from vocational technical schools that would meet the realistic demands of the time in agriculture, services, etc to the universities. In the recent years rebelious teenagers took to the streets demanding 6% of the budget to go to universities when what is needed are technical schools and more primary/secondary education. These same teenagers have scared away foreing investment. But I am sure you already knew that.
I am visionary, meaning that I plan and look to the future but never utopian. I just don't want the past and failures to drag me down and I like to see progress rather than destruction and chaos. Things are improving though and hopefully one day there will be skyscrapers in Esteli.
If you think the
If you think the Esteli-version of Howard Stern's "Stuttering John" has done a good job in Estelí, you have close to no respect for Estelí.. 'Pancho' Valenzuela, I agree, was a fantastic mayor and did a fantastic job there; in fact, during his time, Estelí was praised for its incredibly transparent government 3 or 4 years in a row. He cooperated with the EU so much that many NGOs flocked to our beloved city. The same, unfortunately, can not be said about PPC's administration (Why has DANIDA, for instance, 'suddenly' moved their operations to other cities?).
The "lot more paved streets" that you noticed were a result of Pancho, not the current mayor who has shrugged off several investors and even put Estelí to shame with the Baseball championship fall-out.. Even those who supported him (a certain person from what was telecable, for instance) are now opposing him..
isn't he like at 30% in the polls
isn't he like at 30% in the polls . . . that's a lotta beneficiaries for a WH
Nope - No Forced Moved
The Miskito people were not forced out of their communites by the new Sandinista government of Nicaragua.
The Miskito people decided to go across the Rio Coco into Honduras after the Sandinistas burned all of their houses and everything else in their villages and killed all the livestock and destroyed their plantations..
That was just a choice of the "Miskito" people to move to another country.
Miskito Alan ®
......
Sounds like what happened in Canada! Or what is happening/have happened in Palestine/Israel...
Alan...this is just another example
of "cowardly" people leaving their lands rather than stay and "fight" for their country as some on this site would have us believe. What is the difference between getting out of Dodge and going the the (evil) US or going to Honduras? What do I not understand? Sounds to me like the ex-pats and the Miskito's were the smart ones.
Walk in their Shoes
It's easy to point fingers at people and call them cowards sitting in an armchair in Pompano Beach.
Pete...
Can't you see the sarcasm in my post? Read it again.
Nope
Sorry I missed it, thought you were being serious.
Sarcasm
I could see your sarcasm and your quotation marks.
Good point.
Miskito Alan ®
Shut Up
You did not! :-)
now that's what I call . . .
a reasoned, rational argument ; ) a la python
No, not at all
It is virtually identical to what has happened with indigenous people all over. The difference is that in Nicaragua the government thought the neglected would be interested in a literacy program, health care, ... After lifetimes of neglect, the response was suspicion and the government response was over-reaction.
Now, if I was an indigenous person and knew anything about the "help" the government of Guatemala or the US "offered", I guess I would be pretty suspicions.
Lots of errors were committed on both sides. Ok, I guess that is three sides: the Miskitos, the Nicaraguan government and the US government. But, unlike in other countries, the Nicaraguan government did recognize the problem and the 1987 constitution reflects that. I suggest that government recognition of its errors and addressing them is one thing that should go on the "credit side" of Sandinista Nicaragua. Based on recent events in Miskitolandia, I would say that has happened.
I also see, for example, a lot of acceptance in "Sandinista Estelí" of ex-Contra. The people that lived in Nicaragua thru the 1980s seem to have done a much better job of recognizing that they were all pawns in a global chessboard then people in the US. Of course, in the US where the current president has the same name minus "Herbert" as then then VP who was "in charge" of what was happening in Nicaragua, the polarization remains.
I hope, for the sake of Nicaragua, the people living in Nicaragua have an opportunity to shape their future.
Sigh
Yes let's put a "credit" on the F$LN side. I mean, we should respect them soooooooooo much more after they bombed Miskito villages, killed babies, and pillaged their only true resource (timber) to enrich their own. Bastante credito para ellos! NOT!!
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Daniel Ortega: "respected" for WHAT????? Spreading the legs of Nicaragua?????
Fyl, it's easy to understand
No amount of literacy programs or health care can possibly compensate for the evil that was done. Your comments about paved streets and water pipes are analogous to what they said about Mussolini. "At least he made the trains run on time."
I think the point is, a man leads the destruction of villages (you might even call him a b*by k*ll*r), forces the people to flee, then says, "come back and get free health care and learn to count using pictures of grenades." Then he keeps coming back every few years thinking the people want him to lead them some more. Then, obviously very intelligent people like you inexplicably look the other way at the man's actions and wonder why certain people write bad things about him on the internet. That's what people can't fathom.
Yeah, I would definitely
Yeah, I would definitely "voluntarily" move if my house and everything else in my village was burned, or if all of my livestock were killed, or if the drop-out watermellons destroyed my plantations.. :)
F$LN
And I imagine the $400 million of lumber sold to those fine upstanding world citizens, Fidel and the USSR, really had nothing to do with the whole sordid affair. Certainly those fine Sandinistas only wanted to help the poor Miskito peoples?
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Daniel Ortega: "respected" for WHAT????? Spreading the legs of Nicaragua and letting the Soviet bloc rape her????????
Padre . . .
the signature . . . children could be reading this . . . I thought we were going to put the sleeves down over our left and right wings but, you're all out there bareing arms ; )
Don't get ME started...
Since the site management forces me to show "respect" for someone I consider a hoodlum, thug, piece of human excrement y mas (and I am being polite), I have to be somewhat creative before I am gone forever...
Imagine, we must show respect because this human being (term used very very loosely) was "president" once. Well, I "respect" him almost as much as I "respect" Stalin and Hitler. They too were "presidents".
And besides, he's not the president, he's the general secretary. I can count on one finger the ideology that uses that terminology...
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Daniel Ortega: "respected" for WHAT????? Spreading the legs of Nicaragua?????????
OK - I just got "filtered"
for the 3rd time. WHAT'S GOING ON HERE? I know there's a new spam filter, but this is ridiculous!!!
Oh my God -
I was just filtered!!! Marty, just know that you're not alone in your consideration of the person being mentioned. No respect AT ALL for this living thing (human being too nice here). Who's making you "play nice", as if I didn't already know...
Marty, exactly
who is making you show "respect" for this piece of crap? He is truly a worthless living thing (human being is too nice for him)! I'll bet I can guess who's forcing you to do this, but that's too much! Let's call a spade a spade!
Axe or Guillotine?
I agree.. It's rather difficult, at least in my eyes, to praise Nicaragua's executioner and his "den of thieves." To those that actually worked decades to acquire something and then suddenly have this usurped for the "greater good" (i.e. Swiss bank accounts), his axe still drips that which stains his flag.
To those mothers whose sons were violently taken from their homes and then returned in a black garbage bag, this axe still creates nightmares and tears..
Take a stroll around Nueva Segovia to see abandoned Coffee processing plants that are akin to the great western ghost towns...
I suppose that those that live in a hypothetical, Utopian world, this axe is nothing more than one of those squeaky plastic hammers.. Try telling that to the once prominent businessman, the lonely mother, and the employees of such plants. Good luck! :)
Respect?
This issue has become extremely sensitive to Some, which it is a shame, One can't ever in a million years EVER ever respect a person, that while in Power, Rape a Nation of it's little wealth for his own richness, furthermore caused thousands of deaths of families and friends.
In order for you to understands this pain you must either have had a family member or loved friend died or have lived through the harship WE lived during his reign.
Now I am tired of some here Blaming the U.S for that,thou they in fact had some blame, most of it falls on this person.
I don't care how many books you read,or articles the truth belongs to those of us who lived through it,and lived to tell about it.
If we Can't fully express our opinions on this site,then maybe we should eliminate Politics as a whole.
FAP
De acuerdo/understood.
Undoubtedly, it's a shame that we can't share thoughts, knowledge, and experiences because someone's sympathetic with someone "that while in Power, Rape[d] a Nation of it's little wealth for his own richness, furthermore caused thousands of deaths of families and friends." I firmly believe that such sympathy stems from living a semi-Quixotic life surrounded by pages in biased literature.
I agree, my friend, if "we Can't fully express our opinions on this site,then maybe we should eliminate Politics as a whole." But by doing this, cybernetic-freedom of speech is violated and this sympathy has then become an obsession and we begin to act like this "leader."
I would apologize, but given people's tears and losses, I can't bring myself to do that. I apologize for not being able to apologize :)
was there another choice?
Seems to me,they either move or die/be killed!!! which some BTW died as a result
FAP
Other Choice?
I Think So.
The Miskito people probably had less money than anybody in the world except Haiti and Ethiopia. The Miskito people got out of Dodge and Rio Coco too.
The idiots in Iraq, Israel, Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Alfghanistan, Gaza, and the other fighting places are staying and loving it until the family is killed.
Yes - The Miskito people had a choice.
Miskito Alan ®
there are some in the world
that would rather fight than eat when their hungry, what if Robert E Lee had not surrendered, MA and I and a lot of others would not be here today.
There is a time to think about how to defeat an eniemy.
One young Miskito man that works for me, cried telling me, and still has a speach impedment from watching from the jungle his entire family killed, an BURNED in their humble popta house on the Rio Coco.
I see how Mari´s face looks when the subject of you know who comes up.
Lyin' Farmer John Wayne
Choice
and it sounds like they made the right one considering what was going on at that time.
Sniffles..
Yeah, the Miskitos had just as much of a choice as the Native Americans.. I suppose the Bloody Shadow knew something about history, at least. They obviously read about Castro, Guevara, Cienfuegos, et al, and decided to impersonate them in a different land. With these facts, there's evidence that they also knew something about American history and its "trail of tears." Pauni Siksa.. sniff sniff.. Pauni Siksa...
1981?
First, two different places I have looked describe Red Christmas as a plan scheduled for Christmas Day 1981 (not 1982) for Miskitos to break away from Nicaragua. This was very early in Sandinista rule and the government felt (right or wrong) that MISURASTA was supporting the plan. (I guess we need to ask Stedman Fagoth.)
The initial "problem" was that Sandinistas tried to involve the Miskitos in, well, Nicaragua for the first time and these people were at best suspicions. Many people then fled to Honduras and joined CIA-backed contra camps. What happened (from "Reagan Versus the Sandinistas: The Undeclared War on Nicaragua):
There is no doubt there were human rights violations. They were docuemnted in Report on the Situation of Human Rights of a Segment of the Nicaraguan Population of Miskito Origin by OAS-IACHR (May 16, 1984) and The Miskitos in Nicaragua 1981-1984 by Americas Watch, 1984.
While this is not exactly a "good period" the constitution process and the document itself clearly reflected a realization that something different was needed.