A Moment That Changed Us



My only thought: It's a shame the museum had to open under Barak Obama's tenure as president. We could have waited another two years . . . .

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KWP gives a link and lights a fuse...


Remember a flight to Van in 1997 - Had the first row of the "cheap seats"

Stewardess stops to chat with a man my age (at the time) and his 5 or 6 yr old Son. She says "Do you want to see the cock pit" .. Boy excitedly says yes.. They walk through first class and start to converse through the open door. Finally the Pilot ends the discussion stating that they need to land...

Father turns to the boy and states "OK Son we have to leave they are going down"

Pilot sternly turns to the father with outstretched finger... "WE DO NOT GO DOWN.... We Descend !!! "

Re: Obama -> It is such bad theatre - People around the world beg plead suffer - Die!... For the right to elect their own leader and leadership... To the US, it is cheap Slapstick , Vaudeville play..

The irony is that the thing that works, Social Democracy,

…was never as glamorous, never as romantic, as the extremes, was always full of compromises between economic groups, and is the thing that saved Western Europe after WWII, and is pretty much what you guys have in Canada. Anyone trying to undo that expects to be one of the few winners in a very nasty future.

Or knows no history at all.

Rebecca Brown

It's a shame that is your only thought

The moment you started hating Obama you become his slave

Obama controls your thoughts & invades your dreams

Obama does not know lost control & hate him

Obama would laugh in victory if he did

Obama steals your time and dissipates your energy

Obama is with you when you are awake & when you sleep

Obama robs you of peace of mind and happiness

It's a shame - Wait another two years & you will have another thought:
Hillary will make your day . . . .


You need to add a closing bold HTML tag to end your bold. Humorously, it made everyone's comments after yours bold when I was reading them.

I think...

Its shame you had to make that remark...

The shame

Is that he *chose* to make that remark and that it was his only thought.

The moment that changed the United States forever

…was Robert E. Lee in full dress uniform and a jeweled sword surrendering to Ulysses S. Grant who was wearing the 19th century equivalent of fatigues with his general boards hastily pinned on.

Rebecca Brown

ahh, Lee

the world`s greatest tonto util until Che Guevara. But you paint a good picture of the chivalrous south submitting to the pragmatic union. good thing he did, because the US could not survive without the south.

``Socialism works fine until you run out of other peoples` money``

Margaret Thatcher

Um, cotton?

Or tobacco? Texas has the oil, but if the South had won its little war, Mexico would have gobbled back what was stolen from it, which might have been the better solution. The US would have still had oil and coal (West Virginia had seceeded from the South), smaller population that was better educated. New Orleans might have been a loss. All of the current New South could have been as effective developed by Mexico, which would have been more efficient in dealing with the traitorous secessionist slavers than the North had been willing to be. South only has coal and iron in commercial quantities in Birmingham, Alabama. Agriculture lands? Better in Kansas for staples. Cheap labor? Well, yeah, labor is really cheap if you don't have to pay for it and it not only grows your staples but builds your houses, weaves your cloth, and has sex with you when you want (every single plantation family has its black kin), tends your babies, and grows and cooks your food.

I have friends who were still shell-shocked by southwest Virginia years after taking a job there -- and one of the fun speculations was what would have happened if the South had stayed out of the Union. Their speculation would have it would have been an interesting backward part of the world to visit where the natives spoke English and which would have been less of a burden on the US. The English had gotten their hands on equally cheap sources of cotton (India and Egypt) so the whole Civil War to them was a win-win situation.

My family rose like rockets after slavery was abolished, but there is only one black Brown in our region and he's a conjurer. One of my kin was an overseer for Hardin Reynolds (R.J. Reynolds was his son) and refused to be paid in slaves (circa 1840s or 1850s when things weren't obvious). We have no word as to why, but maybe he was willing to manage them but drew the line at owning them.

Next county north had people providing refuge for Confederate deserters. Two counties beyond that was West Virginia. Kentucky side of the family, my mother's people, seem to have also done very well after slavery ended and smarts became more important.

The South would have been a white English speaking third world undeveloped country. Might have been interesting to visit, but I doubt seriously it would have lasted. Were we going to be willing to go to war with Mexico for it?

Rebecca Brown

short answer

If the south had won, there would be little or no Mexico. The southern Pacific port of Guaymas would be nice to visit.

``Socialism works fine until you run out of other peoples` money``

Margaret Thatcher

The South wasn't going to win

Reality -- if the contract you sign says it's binding and once you join this thing, that's it, that's it.

The South doesn't have anything that made a difference in the 19th Century -- oil systems not in place, no really deposits of iron ore compared to the north, no good soil compared to the north, and no factories compared to the north -- which is why blockade running was so critical. Most of the North went to war in machine-spun and woven cloth; most of the South went to war in home-spun. Confederate uniforms that were machine-made were very rare.

If the UK hadn't recently picked up India and Egypt, they might have cared, but their own laborers were striking against slave-grown cotton.

Read Grant's memoirs -- it's the side we didn't get in South Carolina propaganda, that the South was blackmailing the North over forcing Northerners to be complicit in the slave trade or taking its ball and leaving the Union.

Stupid and proud doesn't beat industrialized and educated.

Rebecca Brown

stupid and proud

isn`t the best option, but Mexico was stupider and prouder. The South turned out some pathetic politicians but some great warriors.

``Socialism works fine until you run out of other peoples` money``

Margaret Thatcher

Like the Cherokee Indians who joined them.

One of my ancestors spent time in a Yankee POW camp in Maryland and stole some Confederate silverware on the way home. My father's impression and even more my grandfather's (Lincoln Republican with Confederate veteran father) was that Hughes Brown through the the war was a crock. Told my grandfather or father that Lincoln addressed Confederate troops during the winter lull in the fighting. I suspect that's mis-remembering Lincoln addressing Confederate POWs.or them mis-remembering what he said, but the family seems to remember him being more impressed with Lincoln than having been one of Stonewall Jackson's pall bearers (if this really was the case).

There the Roman saying that soldiers beat warriors any day. The Confederates never got any further into Union territory than Gettysburg. Grant said in his memoirs that when he took over the Union forces in the East that people were all "Bobby Lee" this and that, and how fantastic a leader Lee was, but Grant didn't waste any time believing the legend.

Interesting bit quoted, I think, in Cash's Mind of the South -- about the Southern cadets at West Point -- how they were superficially domineering, knew how to impress dogs, horses, and servants, but didn't have the Yankee inquisitiveness and inventiveness, or disciplined powers of mind. Most of their good generals came from Appalachia or northern Virginia, along with some of the duds, too. Mississippi slave owners with more than 50 hands ducked their marital duties, and South Carolina produced one general I can remember, just not what he did: Beauregard -- French Huguenot stock. Couple of mediocre generals from NC, Johnstone, if I'm remembering correctly. Pickett's Charge. Jeb Stuart was a idiot, and from Patrick County.

The North had Hooker, Grant, Sheridan, Sherman, and some really pissed off ex-slaves who Lincoln said at point made the difference in the fighting.

Rebecca Brown

Heroes And Traitors



And then we have the heroes of the left: Edward, Chelsea, and Julian. Real winners . . .noteworthy lives, exemplary role models,,

I'm reading a hint of disagreement here

KWP didn't say *the* moment, he said *a* moment.

It seems like a totally fair thing to say. It changed the global geo-political landscape, probably permanently.

The US can waterboard people. People are not held accountable for their actions (Abu Grahib, and a slew of other examples). The spying machinery has become digitized and turned against its own people and its uses are becoming twisted. We have a new application and rules for the term "enemy combatant." The POTUS can unilaterally decide whether to assassinate a citizen without trial, without age restriction (one target was a US citizen minor), and, to date, without court oversight of any kind (read the decision for why: http://www.aclu.org/files/assets/2010-12-7-AulaqivObama-Decision.pdf).

James, my commnet referred to the Obama bit

NOT the wording of the moment or a moment

Obama is the long curve of the US Civil War

…and I've met people throughout my life who defended the South on that one, so it's still reverberating in a way that I seriously doubt 9/11 will 150 years later.

But yeah, it was tacky for the man to attach his pettiness to a national monument to a tragedy that killed a range of people, not all Christian for that matter.

Rebecca Brown

Thing is the lesson we should have learned….

….is the enemy of our enemy is not necessarily our friend.

Otherwise, it was the US's Reichstag fire, where a corrupt leadership used an incident that was bad enough to whip up support for problematic policies. And useful enough that I know on line people who think it was a hoax (I don't think either were government hoaxes).


I don't think many Americans really had problems with going into Afghanistan, but it would have helped if we'd followed the British example and had avoided the whole mess in the first place.

Rebecca Brown

I Don't Hate

Barak Obama, I resent his duplicity and his incompetence, and the mess he's made of the country. Food stamps instead of jobs, ideology instead of energy independence. And, he lies. And then, lies some more. The media looks the other way, embarrassed.

I voted for him, but who knew? He talks the talk, but there is no core.

But, getting back to the thread: We lost so many freedoms after a few Muslim jihadists decided to kill 3000 of our civilians. Little things; I flew on AA 11 a year prior to that, and remember the open cockpit door. It was pleasant, being connected to the flight crew. One flight the attendant took my leather Boeing jacket to hang up, and asked me if I was a pilot. Several minutes later the plane's pilot wandered back "Where's the guy who wants to fly my plane?" brought me forward, and gave me the nickel tour That will never happen again, ever.

We didn't need the NSA to the extent we do now (or, perhaps we did). Getting on and off an airplane was quick and easy. The list goes on. Freedoms lost because a few radical Muslims wanted to kill as many Americans as they could. They still do; that part hasn't changed at all.

So, if the NSA's overreach bothers you, try putting the blame where it belongs.

I don't hate anyone

But I want to pull the plug on your TV and radio. :-)

You think he has that much power?

to make a mess of the country all by himself?

Your modern democratic "lead by example, do as we do" system allows one man to do that?

Sheesh man - If you can't keep up

take notes! Your quetion has already been answered.

Today modern conservatives expect big brother government and the president to provide them cradle to grave care.
Used to be the free enterprise system that created jobs - Now that is the president's responsibility.

Used to be energy independence came from energy sources other than imports.
Now it comes from the new conservative math - Import oil from Canada instead of countries that dislike us more - That eliminates our energy dependence on other countries!

Next election we need to bring back a conservative republican like GWB - He took the Clinton budget surplus and created an even stronger economy, profitable businesses that created all sorts of jobs, & wealth.
Then incompetent Obama took over and made a mess of the country.

Jeb vs Hillary - That is gonna be a real laugh!

Somehow this all has all got to do with living in Nicaragua.

...Some how this all has . .

to do with living in Nicaragua . . ."

Could be why we're here!

2016 is a long way away ... I don't even try to second guess that one.


Why not? You've got to get your complaints in order or you'll look like a lazy bum (aka COMMUNIST)!!


There are lots of things in U.S. history, a small subset of world history, that have been very significant. I could list many reasons that the end of the US Civil War was so much more important than anything that has happened since, one being the sheer number of usano deaths on US soil.

Since then, there have been so many excuses for conflicts that just didn't need to happen. While the labels change, it always seems to be yet another story where an action is taken to benefit us, virtually always at the expense of someone else. Possibly the most embarrassing example is Vietnam where we killed an incredible number of civilians who probably had never heard the term Communist in order to protect us from Communism.


in vietnam were roughly split between ``civilians`` and uniformed soldiers, with many of the sodiers deaths being NVA conscripts. Considering the lenght of the war and the fact than it was both a civil war, in which both sides kill ``civilians`` by nature, and a conventional war, the casualties are not that surprizing. And don`t forget all those killed after the communist victory.

The tradgety of Vietnam, other that the victory of totalitarianism, was that the forces of democracy, miltary and civilian, bungled the war and bungled it over such a long time. The great victory over communism in Asia was in Indonesia, but the credit goes to the Muslim generals!

``Socialism works fine until you run out of other peoples` money``

Margaret Thatcher

Graham Green's "The Quiet American" does Vietnam

…even before we got that deeply involved.

The Brits firmly believed that the lesser countries would be in the grip of some superpower/empire and that they were better as overlords than the German/Austro-Hungarian/Ottoman Empires of the late 19th and early 20th Centuries and that we should have our own empires. Even Orwell believed that India would be dominated by the Russians (the Chinese hadn't shaken off their overloads when Orwell was writing) if not by the British. Turned out to be so much BS, but yeah, a lot of people were killed because of that belief.

Grant felt that the US's support of secession from Mexico (Texas to the north, the current Central American countries to the south) over treating indigenous people as citizens and abolishing slavery lead to the southern states' secession as something close to divine retribution. We attacked the better state in defense of one or two forms of human abuse. Grant's Memoirs are quite amazing.

Rebecca Brown

``Vietnam: the neccesary war...`` by Lind

does Vietnam. A tradgedy of incompetence and errors, like the first 3 years of the US Civil War.

``Socialism works fine until you run out of other peoples` money``

Margaret Thatcher

It's Impossible To Know

whether we indeed drew a line in the sand in Vietnam. Did we save SE Asia from a communist takeover? Depends on who you ask.

Bungled? That's a kind word . . we used something more direct that started with an F and ended with up. I still watch Apocalypse Now occasionally to remind myself how totally unreal the war was. A living video game, interspersed with R & R in Thailand, except, unlike the average video game, a lot of good people lost their lives, pawns in competing economic systems. We didn't need to waste the lives the way we did; we could have fought a lot smarter.

I was in Germany in 1965, and the Soviets had (very half-heartedly, not really their fight) begun to provide air support to the North Vietnamese. The recruiter offered dazzling incentives: you'll never seen any actual combat, painted enticing images of "Bangkok Nights", some pretty nice money for the time (but nothing like KBR pays now). I wouldn't have to kill anyone, just listen to pilot chatter in an air conditioned office in Saigon.

Tempting, but I wanted to get on with my life, go back to school. I regret it to this day. But, who knows, I've met a lot of people who were changed adversely by the experience. I might not be the kind, accepting, tolerant person I am today if I'd taken the offer.

As I said above

Read Ellsberg's book. You will know who did what, when and even sometimes why.

apocalyse now

was a hollywood fantasy and had nothing to do with vietnam.

``Socialism works fine until you run out of other peoples` money``

Margaret Thatcher

See, I Knew I Should Have

gone .. . So, you never saw that USO show with the Playboy bunnies in cowboy outfits dancing to Suzie Q ?

I've talked to so many people, heard so many different stories.

A grunt in the boonies had it tough. One friend had a gun crew, they used to get high and cook off several thousand $ of ammo into the night sky to relieve the boredom. Used to hunt with the guy: "Did you just shoot at a deer? "Nah, just felt like losing a round . . "Well, shit, you just spooked everything in a two mile radius . . "Yeah, lets head back and hit the keg. . we're not going to find anything else this morning."

My friend George Tantzen who ran a data center in Saigon was plied with prime steaks to insure someone's payroll was processed first (data center was always behind). A/C, nice billet in Saigon, probably never knew where his rifle was until he left.

Yeah, I should have gone . .did my part to save the world from communism . .

So, you never saw that USO show with the Playboy bunnies in cowb

you forgot the Filipina Janis Joplin imitators....

``Socialism works fine until you run out of other peoples` money``

Margaret Thatcher

Read Ellsberg first

I recommend reading Secrets: A Memoir of Vietnam and the Pentagon Papers by Daniel Ellsberg before making any statement about the Vietnam war. I thought I knew a lot but he was on the inside and clearly has the big picture.