What should Nicaragua do with tourist visas?
Submitted by fyl on Sat, 2013/03/09 - 13:02.
As typically happens with discussions of "visa resets", http://www.nicaliving.com/node/21010 has regressed into something far from useful. Rather than beat a dead horse, I would like to take up a related subject. What do you feel the Nicaraguan government should do with regard to the situation of residents without residency. That is, people who are perpetual tourists.
It's pretty clear that some changes should be made so that there is less ambiguity and maybe less corruption. So, how about an idea of something that might work. If we come up with a good idea I can pretty much guarantee that Migración will get to hear it.
As the law is now, on entering as a tourist, you get from 30 to 90 days to stay within Nicaragua. The time is a function of your nationality. For most of at least NL readers, this means 90 days and no application before entering. Once in Nicaragua, you can renew this visa one time. All that is easy and well-defined. The issue comes up for someone who wants to stay longer.
It was suggested in the other thread that Nicaragua says you can stay as long as you want but just need to exit the country to reset your visa after your original time and one renewal is up. Obviously, this makes no sense. If this was the intent, why only allow one renewal? Thus, some clarity is needed here.
In-country renewal fulfills the need to track where you are. Making you exit and re-enter offers no benefit to Nicaragua and really means more administrative work for no more income.
I pointed out that Ecuador has a simple "180 days per year" policy. This separates what is tourism from the entry/exit process. Whether you like it or not, it is clear what Ecaudor is doing.
In other threads it was suggested that the residency process is necessary to determine what kind of people are living here. This is because obtaining residency requires you to establish who you really are. This supports the idea that tourist visas are not supposed to be a way to live here without jumping through residency requirements.
The current names of the various types of residency also distort the situation. The reality is that there is 1-year temporary residency and 5-year temporary residency. There is no such thing as permanent residency as renewing a 5-year residency requires you to meet certain criteria.
So, what do you feel would make sense? Personally, I would lean toward tourism (that cannot be renewed), temporary residency (maybe for one year where you need to be pre-approved by possibly submitting a police report and such before traveling to Nicaragua) and permanent residency (that really means that).
Note that Costa Rica allows you to apply for residency once you are there but charges you an additional $250. Guatemala has permanent residency that really is permanent.
Zombie Hipico on NL
"Rather than beat a dead horse, ..." Little did I know that a dead horse could also be ridden, let alone so far . . .
IMO Billy Bob nailed it early: "when Nic gets tired of perpetual tourists for any reason they will just start enforcing it at the border. No big deal-" Easy peasy.
But then the dead horse began to canter. JacksonK's 3-point opinion was nominated & seconded by NL heavies, effectively assuring its actionable nomination by NL's virtual parliment. What's going on here? Has NL morphed into a virtual NGO State Department for all English-speaking foreigners residing in or visiting or considering Nicaragua? Will NL's rewrite of Nicaragua's immigration rules pass muster with (or even be considered by) their legislature, the dictatorship or the business magnates who steer this sovereign ship?
Stay tuned, which is to say, keep 'NL-fyl' up there on your browser favorites.
(Or step outside to watch a pair of guardabarancas do their floating dance above the treetops, if your eyes can still focus at a distance in daylight. If not, close 'em and go hug your mate.)
Spurring The Horse
on a bit further, since it hasn't fallen dead yet:
One must assume that Nicaragua must have some analysis of the daily news in place, and that would probably include keeping an eye on the local Gringos as well. Whether it's through the offices of a Cuban style CPC, or something less formal, I assume some of these ideas and comments make it into some version of a press or intelligence briefing.
So, it's logical to assume, that absent a formal "Gringo Suggestion Box" some of this chatter makes its way upwards eventually. Many of the suggestions brought forward had merit. The 180 day idea, such as what Mexico does, would make life easier for, and encourage SnowBirds to choose Nicaragua. This group would be a large benefit, and negligible burden on Nicaragua. WHY limit a tourist's stay to 90 days? ANY tourist, even a backpacker is probably going to spend more than the minimal monthly residency requirement. That's only $20 /day, hardly enough to get a cheap hostel, and beans and rice 3X daily. It's not like Nicaragua is overrun with tourists, and my last visit to Masaya found the restaurant in the arts and crafts center packed with Gringos chowing down on overpriced lomos. Why not 180 days?
Going to 180 days (like Mexico again) would probably meet the needs of most who would like to spend extended time in Nicaragua. Some would pursue some form of residency eventually, others would simply travel back and forth between their home in the US or Canada, and their house, farm or condo in Nicaragua. Or, travel a bit through the rest of CA and Latin America. What is the problem with that?
What IS the big deal with becoming a resident of Nicaragua, other than the free importation of household goods and a vehicle? The issue with bank accounts and cell phone access could be changed easily to allow a passport to anchor these services. Someone who wants to do business in Nicaragua -(and there are many opportunities)- will pursue oneof the investor options, but a decision like this is not made without careful evaluation of numerous considerations, and that evaluation takes time.
Mexico seems to work well with that 180 day number; I just don't see why it wouldn't work in Nicaragua.
I Spent A
bit more than $12K this trip to Nicaragua, in Nicaragua, and that didn't include any more property purchases. I bought a complete set of new appliances including a washing machine, furniture that included two nice beds (one queen, one matrimonial) with the best mattresses i could find, tables, etc, etc. I prepaid my first six months lease on the house in Condega.
Finally, I put a crew of five to work on my farm, clearing brush, mending fences, digging a hole for a septic tank; and I established a fool proof way to get them paid weekly until I return in late April. This work will go on indefinitely, and they are pleased to have the work during this time of year.
I'm not paying extravagantly, but I am paying almost double what they were getting before in order to meet (and I think slightly exceed) the minimum wage. I've already got a little flack for this, but as I hoped, it's got me some hard working motivated people who really want to keep their jobs. I've quietyly checked on them a couple of times to insure that I am getting my full day, and I am.
I don't know if my effort qualifies as a cow farm with gates, but it has made a big difference to some of the people I interacted with. The north part of the country is still significantly poorer than the south; it's very obvious as you drive it.
I'm certainly not the only non-resident on the site who has invested significant dinero in Nicaragua, and I'm not blowing my horn. I MAY be the most outspoken . . . .
I just want casual readers to recognize that the reality of Nicargua is not accurately described by Rebecca's posts, and a reader interested in retiring to, or investing in, Nicaragua should read them carefully for the obvious inconsistencies.
Returning to the in and out issue, I did successfully get a car permit for 90 days in CR, left my car a few miles from the SJO airport, and flew to LAX yesterday ($ 248 on Spirit plus $30 for my bag). I didn't use the lavatory on the plane so don't know if it's true that Spirit is now charging a quarter to access the plane lavatory :) ,, but it was a new plane and a decent experience. I'd probably do it again.
One final suggestion for Cedular requirements...
Maybe that is because you have let yourself become brainwashed by the parrots on FOX News ;-))
Now that final Cedula requirement:
This is for the applicant's own safety! I have heard (a method of proof good enough for Juanno is good enough for me) that Ortega just bought some killer drones from Obama to use against anyone outspoken enough to question his socialistic policies or his contempt for the US.
For what it's worth, my
For what it's worth, my opinion
1. Keep the 3-month tourist visa. General approach for dealing with the majority of Nica visitors
2. Institute a 6 to 8 month snow-bird visa... geared towards N. Americans seasonal travel... just like a 3-month (just longer) with the same paperwork and assoicated fees. Not a temporary resident, just an extended tourist. Maybe more of niche market, but it'll cut down on gov't paperwork and make it easier to stay longer. This will also bring in the non-backpacker tourist crowd, which is what the business community is looking for.
3. Permanent residency - if you're going to live in Nica full-time, then it's in the nations interest to make these people fully vested and participants in the culture.
OK, let's look at details
This does seem like a reasonable approach but, to do it, there are some details to address. Here is my short list.
Thanks for this suggestion. It may not be the right answer but it is a nice starting point so we have something real to discuss.
I think you have the details
I think you have the details covered. Pay for 2 or 3 90-day visa all at once (no loss of tourist revenue) but with the understanding that the check in is at the end of the 6-9 month period. This will also reduce gov't labor and paperwork (as there are fewer check-ins) and less hassle to touiists, which may increase incentive to go through proper channels.
I'm not sure what type of risk perpetual tourist are to Nica, but the penalities for not leaving after this 6-9 month visa expires or getting it re-newed could be stiffer or actually enforced.
ditto
to what jacksonk said
"Anything that is complex is not useful and anything that is useful is simple. This has been my whole life's motto."
Mikhail Kalashnikov, Russian inventor
Yep
Jackson seems to have simply covered most scenarios. I like it.
Basically, why would Nicaragua want to listen to us?
Most of the people on this site seem to be incapable of following the currently simplified directions for getting residency and make stuff up about why they're not going to do it or have been misinformed.
People could decide to do all the initial paperwork in the first week or two they're in country while staying close to Managua, hand the completed package over to Intur, come back twice, once for taking the Intur packet to Migracion and then back for the photo secession and thumb printing. Translations and possibly the notary work could possible be done before people arrive in Nicaragua.
The problem with expiring paperwork was real enough but is not currently the problem it was.
What I'd really like is someone from Intur/Migracion to actually show up here and answer questions. This site is rife with misinformation on this process and having someone who actually worked with people on getting residency (not a lawyer looking for customers) would be useful , I think.
Rebecca Brown
Better would be snowflake expert....
no two alike.
They might listen because
these people you complain about create a lot of jobs for the locals here.& supply a lot of the foreign money coming into this country to help keep keep it afloat. If you "live like a North American" here you will throw a few thousand a month onto this economy and that is important to Nicaragua. Or you may start a business that pays minimum wage or more to a few locals compared to most Nica owned businesses here in SJDS which exploit their own people. Because of the poor world economy many foreign high rollers have left & the Chavez death may further reduce the money coming into this country. But there is a sucker born every day with money who wants a new experience and this is one place to get that. Why else would anyone be here?
As far as require paperwork & processes, fyl, Juanno, you, and lawyers here quote the laws & requirements but those are not cast in concrete and are instead flexible. Many exceptions are made with no bribe involved. For example under certain conditions no cedula is required to obtain a RUC #, legally run a business here, and then use that income to satisfy the income requirements to apply for a cedula. Many very financially successful foreigners don't have and simple proof of income but their financial situation is analyzed to allow a cedula.
"What I'd really like is someone from Intur/Migracion to actually show up here and answer questions" is not gonna happen because there are no stock answers to complex situations and things evolve. Here Intur/Migracion seem to be the ones who decide what these laws say & mean compared to the US where the courts usually do that.
Nicaragua will be using the apostilled documents system
...beginning on May 14.
This may be why the US Embassy was concerned about its citizens who haven't been getting residency. After May 14th, the complaints about how hard it would be to have to get the Nicaraguan consulate that covers your states to approve the documents won't be an issue.
Interesting. Kids, turn the papers in before June.
If people genuinely have money to invest here, there's is a category for that. My impression is that there are more people who don't succeed than do, but this is true of businesses everywhere.
The Wikipedia article that Fred linked to explains what will be required starting May 14. And that somewhat explains the Ambassador's urging that we get right with the Nicaraguan government regarding our residencies.
My suspicion is that if all the promises hadn't been mostly broken, with Nicaragua dotted with fantasy projects now cow farms with a guard at the gate, they'd been more willing to listen. We're Yankee peddlers with a great line of chatter and broken Jews harps. The Chinese can build Nicaragua a canal, or not.
Hague goes live May 15. I'm sure the Ambassador knew this at the time of the Town Hall meeting. So, boys and girls who think spending money gives you the right to live anywhere you want without paying the least bit of attention to local laws.....
The ambassador also felt that Nicaragua's post-Chavez economic plans were sound.
Throwing money into an economy can be inflationary -- and I suspect there are people in Managua who have figured out what genuinely helps and what tends to increase the GINI index.
Rebecca Brown
My docs were apostiled by the Columbian Consulate.
My docs were apostiled by the Columbian Consulate two years ago as the normal course of events. The Nicaraguan Consulate in Miami sent me to the Columbian Consulate in Miami about 10 blocks away to wait until new ones arrived from Washington, DC. (A daily delivery that came in at 10:00 AM) I didn't understand it then nor now. But the docs were all accepted when I got to Immigration in Managua a couple of weeks later. "Nicaragua will be using the apostilled documents system Submitted by oncidiumfan on Tue, 2013/03/12 - 09:31. ...beginning on May 14. This may be why the US Embassy was concerned about its citizens who haven't been getting residency. After May 14th, the complaints about how hard it would be to have to get the Nicaraguan consulate that covers your states to approve the documents won't be an issue." I don't see a new problem arising.
The only saving is the Nica Consulate part.
The bit I found the easiest actually, thanks to a great gal in Washington who was really on the ball.
Whats going to change May 15th Rebecca? Residency Police gonna start patrolling?
You make it sound like a Mayan Calander event.
Who decides?
You are certainly right that there is flexibility. To cite a real example, the exact same paperwork for my residency which included an expired police report which was rejected was accepted on a different day with a different lawyer and a different attitude. No bribes, no screaming and yelling. There are lots of possibilities but I think we need to concentrate on what would encourage a regular person to get residency instead of remaining a border hopper.
As for who decides, the only real difference I see between here and the US is here there is much less litigation. As I have internal knowledge of Washington state I will use that as an example. The result of legislative action is what is called the Revised Code of Washington (RCW). This is the law that must be implemented. The implementation, done at the agency level, is documented in Washington Administrative Code (WAC). Thus, an RCW that says that underwater basketweavers must be licensed doesn't explain how. The Department of Licensing then writes an RCW that details the licensing process.
We see the same here in Nicaragua. Back when Migración had a useful web site, these internal procedures were available on-line. I had a copy of the one on obtaining residency. It certainly contained some assumptions but I could say the same for how it worked in the State of Washington. The main difference is that in Nicaragua people seem less likely to go to court to try to get the interpretation revised.
As for Intur's involvement, multiple sources have indicated the Intur-Migración relationship is less than perfect. I would characterize it as being more like Intur is your representative and nothing more. The fact that they work with Migración on a regular basis just means they are familiar with what does and doesn't work.
I wonder - Who makes the decisions?
Do the lower level Intur-Migración people make these decisions? Can you go to a different window next time and get a different answer?
If Nicaragua is basing the cedula requirements on what would help the country the most then greasing the skids for guys KWP who will boost the economy and improve the lives of the locals need to be considered. He brings money & technical/managerial skills to create jobs & contribute to the development this country. Job training for the locals comes from working for businesses here - not from the local schools - I know about that and it costs the employer lots of time & money to train workers to be able to support themselves & their families. Their first motorcycle for transportation may come due to wages/loan based upon this job.
Again if the subject is what policies benefit Nica then consider the $600 minimum income requirement which is lower than most other CA countries. Those who come here on a shoestring do contribute a little money to the local economy which helps. But if they compete with local Nicas for housing then any resulting rental inflation is detrimental.
No, they don't
There are cases when a "window person" makes a decision based on an incorrect interpretation of what a higher up told them (or electing to be more conservative then they were told). I have personally experienced this. But, I have been told by a second-level person (in other words, a supervisor, not a window person) that their "section" just asts as a pre-screening for a higher up section/group.
While I don't want to name names here, the conversation was pretty much like this.
It depends
:
What makes sense for the good of the tourist or what is good for Nicaragua?
If you mean good for Nicaragua then the US laws are an example. For those immigrants who do have offerings - either skills or money there are easier ways to enter the US - Things like the E1 - E5 visas & EB1 - EB-5 programs. Nicaragua has Law 306 but lawyers I talked to recommended against that for most people because of the paperwork requirements vs benefits.
But for those who have little to offer the US makes it difficult to enter the country because millions of those have stayed illegally and right now there is no practical way to find & deport them. An temporary entry visa is a "permanent residency". But to my eyes many of the unskilled do help the US so maybe limited residency for them is right.
There are lots of options to consider:
I realize that my or other comparisons to visiting the US are not completely logical because it is an entirely different situation. Folks go to the US to try to earn more money and have a better life. A lot of US taxpayers say the US ought make it tougher for foreigners to get in even with a temporary(permanent) visa. The perception is that many immigrants are problems for the US rather than a benefit.
But crazies come here to Nicaragua for many reasons but the ones that bring a lot of money usually leave most of it here and that creates jobs and helps Nicaragua and its people the most - Building a home or starting a business usually means hiring lots of locals. But for Nica to offer residencies for skilled labor like the US does would probably not Nica help much.
My impression is that if you make it hard to come to the US
...the people who immigrate illegally are more likely to be problematic. Even if the problematic ones come anyway, a normal immigrant community with a stake in the US is more likely to police them. Black communities with a black middle class are safer than ones that the black middle class abandoned -- cause and effect there isn't always obvious, either.
The old "outlaw guns" problem.
One thing that happens with land and houses is that the price some expats pay means that that real estate is removed from the local real estate market and will in the future only be sold to other gringos and expats. A little of this isn't a problem; a lot of it in a country that's still 48% agricultural can be a major problem.
Rebecca Brown
That In A Nutshell
is why Nicas have such a hard time getting visas to the US----many wouldn't leave the US and everyone knows that. I'd do the same, if I were a poor Nicaragauan. I don't see the US visa requirements being eased anytime soon for most of CA and Latin America.
But, not all Nica visa applicants are turned down. If you have money, property, a hook that insures your return, then it's not a problem. I don't know Nicas who go back and forth, but lots of Costa Ricans come and leave the US routinely without problem.
If you're a Nica making $20 /day (which is more than most Nica's make, including teachers and other mid-level government employees) then the idea of a tourist visit to the US is pretty far fetched. Nicas with family in the US that will guarantee their return are also in better shape for a favorable visa application interview.
This is not a problem limited to Nicas, lots of Brits for example have come to the US, found work, and just stayed. It used to be very easy to find a good job in Florida in the tourism industry, and that attracted quite a few. I know some Eastern European cruise ship crew who have jumped ship in Florida as well, and work without much bother. Speaking English fluently makes it easy to blend in for this group.
Nicaraguans are crippled by their educational system; I'm finding people I hire can't effectively read, and can't do the simplest math. Teachers are already being recruited for the next presidential campaign; for the smart ones who want to move up the food chain, this rather than teaching will become their focus. The primary qualification for hiring a Nicaraguan teacher is a letter from the local Sandinista party official. Of course, anyone with money who can find a different educational solution for their children, does exactly that.
Good for Nicaragua
That doesn't have to mean bad for the tourist but, clearly, the government should do what is best for the country.
I think what we are looking at is how Migración can get what it needs, Nicaragua can maximize its revenue and tourists don't have to deal with stuff that does not make sense.
To offer but one example, if Nicaragua wants tourists to check in every 90 days but doesn't care how long they stay, there is no reason to make the tourist leave the country. Your movement and visa renewals are always tracked (my first time was in either 2000 or 2001 and it shows up on my record at Migración).
You do bring up an interesting point with someone investing here. Right now, investor residency is for an investment other than your personal residence. This is pretty typical (at least in Latin America) but it is clear that someone who does buy or build a personal residency is going to be more stable and more invested (I mean that in more ways than just financially) in Nicaragua. There may be some possibilities here.
I suspect there's a graph for value of having expats here
My suspicions, having lived in several different areas with tourism and retirement as major parts of the local economies is that up to a point, retirees are a good thing but if there's too big a gap between the money the retirees have and other people have, there's an inflationary trend. So, initially, Nicaragua wasn't getting enough retirees. CR has apparently decided they have enough now, so have changed their policies toward them.
Tourism -- same problem -- the jobs tend to be low skilled or lower skilled, and there's pressure on the locality to allow certain things (ridge top high rise condos) and not allow other things (factories in the view).
The investment requirement had been honored in the breach by people who build their own private houses and declare it a hostel because they've got a room to rent or a place to hang hammocks.
Nicaragua is probably thinking this one out as they go along. They want tourists; they want pensionados (and understand their market better than the people who were trying to peddle $30K lots and $150K houses). Average Americans aren't going to come here.
I'm going to be looking into buying into a government housing program here, but don't know if it's open to foreigners. My family has already agreed that if I do this, they're not going to inherit the house. It will go to a Nicaraguan. So, if I can do this, I'm not taking land out of local circulation.
Tourism can be helpful and it can be inflationary. Same for encouraging retirees.
The average actual real tourist stay here seems to be in the matter of less than two weeks (I think Juanno has posted the figures for that), so the average tourist isn't affected in the least. Even backpackers don't stay as long as six months -- Nicaragua tends to be part of the grand tour of Central America, not the main destination.
The only people the six month rule does affect are people who want to live here without making it official. My guess is that the rule has always been intended as a nudge toward encouraging people to apply for residency. Refusing to reissue drivers licenses without cedulas was an even harder nudge.
If I were playing this game, I would see if the US Embassy would be willing to say why they're very strongly encouraging people to get their residencies regularized. Since they are doing this, and since they don't seem like stupid people, I would be applying for residency now if I hadn't done this earlier.
Close to zero real tourists are affected by the six month rule; probably close to zero are even affected by having the renew their visas at three months. I suspect that Nicaragua was concerned that the US would put pressure on them if they started requiring residency application of de facto residents. If this has been worked out, then they're going to start requiring residency applications of de facto residents.
People who don't like this should talk to their consulates and embassies.
Rebecca Brown
Not exactly
You said
As Daddy-YO explained, he has a legitimate reason to come to Nicaragua for at least more than the initial 90 days every year. In his case, it sounds as if we are talking less than 180 days but his story is an example of a potential exception.
In general, we are talking about people who have two homes. The common name for retirees that do this are snow birds. Retirees that head south in the winter from their primary residence. While the southern location has typically been Florida or Arizona, there is no reason Nicaragua would not want to attract this group.
It would seem like Nicaragua needs a way to encourage them to stay here -- even if it is for most of the year -- but encourage the border hoppers to get residency.
I do want to add one other point here. The more complicated Nicaragua makes the process, the more likely it will get abused. To offer a parallel in the US, many state colleges offer lower tuitions for in-state students. Thus, many out-of-state students find a way to pretend they are state residents.
State-rate tuition
This was once a real complication in U.S. education but nowadays it isn't so. The in- and out-state rates vary greatly but if real money is involved all one need to is relocated to the state of choice and live their 6-12 months, thereby saving all the rate difference. However, this assumes the destination states doesn't have one of the ever-growing reciprocity rates with the home state or that the student's academic or athletic record doesn't result in a full waiver of out-of-state tuition fees.
Drifting off-topic
I offered this example only because it was a well-known problem in the US created by extra rules. My point is that if Nicaragua started adding things you need to prove (like showing you do have a house in another country as well), it would just create a new loophole to exploit.
Other posts here have also got off track. The question is about what Nicaragua should do ... . That means we need to figure out who will be affected and see if there is something that could be offered/changed in such a way that Nicaragua would still get what it wants -- whether than is more control of who is here without residency, more external revenue or, probably, both.
Maybe there are so few in this boat that it isn't important but I think that is not the case. I know I was in the group of people who really lived here but put off getting residency. Why?
Am I glad I finally got residency? Yes. But, I would have gotten it earlier if things had been different. So, I see the question more as "what can Nicaragua do" to get what they want out of me, Juanno, Miskito Alan, ...".
I think what I went through was different in many ways
The process for getting residency has been improved. They went from expiring documents at three months to six, which was a huge help right there. The police report is from your last legal residence -- and Fred Lamb posted about how he managed to get one from his former state despite all sorts of problems with his former state. Had you been a legal resident of Costa Rica, my understanding is that your police report would have come from there.
I don't know anyone here who had egregious problems other than having Intur staff give overly optimistic estimates on how long the process would take. Everyone's times were no less than four months and some as long as five or six before getting approval and the photo appointment.
At some point, documents cease to age. I didn't have that problem myself, but friends had concern about theirs. It appears that documents cease to age when they're accepted by Intur.
Things are different now.
Rebecca Brown
They messed mine up same as they did fyls.
Ergo, I cannot say it has gotten better.
For the purposes of residency, documents have always expired 6 months from issue.
From Migracion:
Certificado de Antecedentes Penales emitido por la autoridad competente del país de origen o de residencia de los últimos tres años.
That's 'Country of Origin' (not State) but if you for some reason had not lived there for 3 years, then its where you were living for those three years.
Even bad legaleze
The sentence implies "A or B". (I remember being told 5 years but no matter.) In practice it was "everywhere you have lived in the past 3 (5) years". When I initially went to apply for residency, that was the US, Costa Rica and Nicaragua.
What's interesting is that Costa Rica does an Interpol check so their work is going to be better than what would come from some semi-local US police department.
As Apostlles don't work in Nicaragua, this means each document must go through multiple steps to get authenticated. For example, a police report from the Washington State Patrol must go through:
If you don't happen to be in Olympia Washington and plan on stopping in San Francisco for a few days on your way to Managua, this is not an easy process to complete in a timely manner. I am not suggesting this is unnecessary, just that it is not something that can be accomplished in a few hours. When you have more than one such document to get processed, it becomes more complicated. If you are already in Nicaragua, it is a lot more complicated than if you get this done before heading to Nicaragua.
The result is that for someone already in Nicaragua, there is a big wall to get over when you apply. If the quasi-legal alternatives are relatively easy, many will take that path. In my case, the final straw that made getting residency worth it was that the Department of Estelí seems to have a different opinion that other departments on an unrelated law.
While this chain of authority sequence for document authentications seems to make sense on the surface, in practice it does not. Let me offer an example (and reality was actually worse than this).
I was asked to prove I had a pension which, itself made no sense as I was renewing my residency which I had obtained without having a pension. Any document from outside Nicaragua must go through a chain of authority similar to what I have described for the police report. Someone (at Migración) said the US Embassy in Managua could do this. (That would mean a document from there then authenticaed by the Ministry of External Relations.) I was surprised as I could not see the Embassy creating a pension letter for you but went to ask.
The answer was even more surprising. They said no, but ... They asked me if I had anything that said I had a pension and I produced a photocopy of an old letter addressed to my Houston mailing address. They took that and produced a letter that basically said "This dude claims to have a pension of $xxxx from YYY". At the Ministry of External relations they certified that this document came from the US Embassy. That worked but, in reality, would be no different than if someone in Migración had asked me if I had a pension.
While I may seem to be rambling on, the point is that after the first document is produced, all the chain of authentication does is say the previous person who signed the document is who they say they are. Understandable because, for example, an agency in Nicaragua is not going to know that Sgt. Smith of the Washington State Patrol is the guy who can issue police reports. In fact, they are not even going to know that Washington State Patrol is the agency that has these records.
Being able to use Apostilled documents would help a lot. Bottom line is that the current system discourages those already in Nicaragua from seeking legal residency.
Hague goes into effect here May 14
As for the proof of pension -- if it's with Social Security, they can send you a letter saying what your pension is (form on their website) and the State Department can authenticate that (formally at the Office of Authentications and through the Embassy). My SS letter was authenticated by the State Department in DC; Fred Lamb's and yours were authenticated by the State Department in Nicaragua.
From another person's account, the Nicaraguan Consulate in DC will authenticate all documents from any part of the US if those documents are first authenticated by the US State Department. And MinRex will accept those, or documents authenticated by the US Embassy here (see Fred Lamb's account). After May 14th, the Nicaraguan consular authentications won't be necessary but US State Department authentications will be. The Office of Authentications is cheaper.
What I did that people here told me I didn't need to do will be what everyone will have to do after May 14th: get authentications from either at the US State Department Office of Authentications or from the US Embassy in Nicaragua. And the US State Department Office of Authentications will require that all documents not issued by the US government be authenticated by the various state authenticating agencies first, Hague or not.
The only step that people won't have to do is getting things authenticated by the Nicaraguan consulate. Fred Lamb has already gone through this process as described in your article, so they're beta'ing the program now.
So, I suspect that the hammer comes down on the perpetual tourists in June. They will have made it possible to get everything done here.
While the official roll out is May 14, Nicaragua has been doing this at least for people who have been long term residents like Fred Lamb, and yes, it did make it easier for him to get all the paperwork together without going back to the US.
Thanks for the link to the article -- it explains why what happened with Fred Lamb was what it was. Intur is already using the system that will be official in May.
Rebecca Brown
"...put off getting residency. Why?"
Reason 5. If the foreigner with 5-year residency has been out of Nicaragua for more than a total of 1 year in the last 5 (the residency period), the residency will NOT be renewed.
To me, this is one of fyl's "extra rules" and is a deal-breaker for me.
Are you sure?
My understanding was that it was being out of Nicaragua for a consecutive year. In other words, you need to enter Nicaragua at least once every year.
Ah, I see what you mean.
Fyl is right.
They do not tally up your absences in 5 years and if its over one year, do not renew. That simply is not true.
You cannot be out for more than 365 consecutive days. If you are are (without the permiso I explained), they can (and did to one guy I know) seize your card on the way in and give you a 90 day tourist visa.
But Ocotal, that is not cast in stone.
You may have to submit a notorized Carta de Solicitud explaining why you need to be gone for more than a year and they MAY authorize it.
Good reasons are: reasons of health, education, or family problems (properly documented).
My thanks to fyl and Juanno for their corrections
My thanks to fyl and Juanno for their corrections.
Ecuador
at one time had a 8 or 9 month snowbird visa, which included a cedula (and presumably a police report to get the cedula). That would be a great choice for snowbirds who might want to stay about half the year but not want to get limited to 180 days twice or all the paperwork to get permanent residency.
"Anything that is complex is not useful and anything that is useful is simple. This has been my whole life's motto."
Mikhail Kalashnikov, Russian inventor
Yes, and they stopped doing that
...if I'm remembering Phil's comments correctly. The easy way to have the most control over people who will bend the rules is to make it simpler.
All the paperwork? It's really not anything compared to a Chinese adoption (one of the consular couriers showed me his file on one of those).
Rebecca Brown
People who have two homes are not going to have a problem
If they're spending six months minus a day here, as I suspect most do, they send their passports to Managua for the three month renewal. I met someone who lived year round in a place that was mostly snowbirds. He had residency. They show up only when it gets cold back home and leave when it starts to rain here. They show up in mid-November and go home in April -- six months, little less.
For these people -- if the time in Nicaragua is slightly longer than in the US (six months plus a day), get residency. It's already okay now to spend up to six months outside Nicaragua for residents. If the time in Nicaragua is slightly less than six months, renew once in country, or pay the fine for the days at the airport. Renewing the visa is pretty easy. I didn't have to leave Jinotega to do that (and if a residency application is in progress, you do have to keep the tourist visa current, regardless of what people here told me).
If the current law simply went to one in-country renewal unless residency application was in progress, and no more than six months in Nicaragua per year for anyone who wasn't a resident or applying for residency, that would be the most straight-forward way to deal with it. Tourists and half year residents would be unaffected or minimally affected (overstay a few days and pay $2 a day, no biggie, really). Everyone else would, as the Ambassador put it, have to regularize their status with the Nicaraguan government.
Rebecca Brown
Days in Nicaragua latest figures
For all tourists 8.1 days average and they spend $42.10 per day.
US tourists stay about 10 days
average tourist stay
How was it possible to calculate these averages NOT including the stays of perpetual tourists?
Its only by passport count and what you check on the form
I can't think of how else they could do it.
Here is the breakdown for 2011:
Vacaciones o recreo - 49.4
Visitas a familiares / amigos - 23.7
Trabajo o negocios - 6.0
Otros - 20.9
Counting
Any sort of measure will have serious faults. Years ago the UN Trade & Development outfit tracked tourist stays by country, as did national travel and tourism agencies. Numbers varied greatly. If you use initial purchase flight data you will not count people who extend stays or long-range tourists as they discard the first RT ticket and come home another route, and multi-stop tickets are ignored with only the first stop measured. If you do as some measures did and rule out nationals, the numbers of tourists to some poor countries plummets since so many visitors are family going back home on an in-country passport. If a region is now established as passport or visa free, this screws up old-new measure comparisons and raises many concerns per who to measure. Also, these people are either counted or not. If you count them then the tourist's per-day measure goes way down since so many people cross only to go shopping a day, or see family or a friend, etc. If you don't count them then the number of people crossing as tourists goes way down as visitors from a neighboring country are usually substantial. One giant factor is the source of a country's tourists and if that country has national laws mandating paid vacation and/or holiday days. If the U.S. is your source, vacation mandated is actually zero, whereas much of Europe is 22 (28-35 if holidays are added) days. Even if you take the norm of someone with an o.k. salary in the U.S., few people vacation abroad in a single country for more than 10 days (they often waste 2 getting there and 2 getting back and they only have 12-15 to work with anyway). What people actually spend on vacation is even trickier than how long they stay, if an accurate measure is your goal. No matter what you do some people will be lost and the movements of others will not be what some consider those of true "tourists". There are many of the same problems measuring remittances. For example, 90% of the people I know who send money to C.A. do not use a means that any tracking system measures.
Banco Nicaragua
I was told that the central bank gets a notification of all foreign inputs.
Moving money
Two common cases: I could be wrong but was led to believe -at least in Honduras- that if I move money from my account in the U.S. to my account in Honduras it is not tracked via a remittance use since it is a movement of money to myself. This was explained to me in the context of possible setups for something like WellsFargo ExpressSend - which targets people who send remittances on a monthly basis. If an ExpressSend has a fixed collection person with a Honduran I.D., then it is a remittance, but if the collection person in me and/or a non-Honduran it is not a remittance. The other common route is so simply load money to a U.S. account and the person in Honduras draws on the account via an ATM card. The government and/or bank has no way of knowing it is my brother-in-law using my ATM card, not me. These two methods are nearly free compared to some others options.
So this is basically a non-issue for average tourists
It's a long haul to Nicaragua for US people who aren't close to Houston, Miami, or Atlanta, as I had explained to me recently.
Rebecca Brown
No
The flight between Miami and Managa is about 2.5 hours. I think that is actually shorter than Atlanta, Houston or Los Angeles. But, not being near the airports with flights is no different than not being near airports with flights to any other destination.
For example, I have friends who live in southern Oregon. If they are going to fly to Miami, Tucson or any other US destination, the first thing they do is drive to San Francisco or Oakland to catch a flight. (Personally, I think it would be a bit more sane to take the train but this is how they have done it to visit Arizona, Nicaragua and Guatemala.) That is much bigger part of their travel time than the flight time from a US city to Managua.
Point was that for people who don't live close to those airports
...getting to Managua can be as long as an 17 hour haul, data given to me by people who were considering which convention to vote for. Seattle to Managua was in that range. Some people were looking at even longer times to save money. The trip only made sense, judging on comments I got, for those people who lived near Miami, Atlanta, or Houston. Nobody mentioned a LA to Managua flight at all. Quick search shows all but one current LA flights going through Miami or Houston. So, your friends may be driving to avoid being in airport/airline custody for more than 8 hours or so. Seven hours looks like the shortest flight from LA. One TACA flight has flight that has a layover in El Salvador, so that's without changing planes, apparently.
My bid lost to Ann Arbor, MI. One of the advantages for a number of people was that they could drive to it in less than the time going to Managua would take. One person's comments were that a trip here would be rather problematic in terms of travel stress.
So for people living in Miami and Houston, the Nicaraguan bid was just fine. For everyone else, not so much, apparently. I did get some support but I suspect I know precisely from where and from who.
That's an odd survey, queer even, but many of them do travel, but most of them preferred going to Ann Arbor.
More airports in the US offer direct flights to Europe than offer direct flights to Managua (basically, three airports in the US compared to three airports in North Carolina offering direct flights to Europe (Charlotte, Raleigh/Durham, and Greensboro). Flight times from NC to London are within an hour or two of flight times from NC to Managua (did that in October). One stop in NYC area, but no changing of planes.
I believe there has been a European Soc.motss con, but more airports do have direct flights to Europe than have direct flights to Managua.
Rebecca Brown
WTF!! Section 8 housing for expats?
Rebecca's says: I'm going to be looking into buying into a government housing program here, but don't know if it's open to foreigners. My family has already agreed that if I do this, they're not going to inherit the house. It will go to a Nicaraguan. So, if I can do this, I'm not taking land out of local circulation.
I had to read this like 10 times! I can't even wrap this around my brain! Ok maybe you found some government program that you can somehow use to your advantage and you have discussed with your family that they will not get any $$$$ out of the deal and you will give it back to Nicaragua? Why on earth would Nicaragua give you anything? Or are you thinking that what ever you "get" will increase in value and after you die you will give everything back to Nicaragua and all is right with the world?
I don't know if I can buy in
The government program apparently pays for itself based on what other people here who built small houses paid for construction. They want middle income people (by Nicaraguan standards). Houses go up in three weeks, and the buyers pay for them over the next five years, $250 US a month.
I don't know if it's possible for a foreigner to buy in. I don't know that I would want to buy there, either, haven't seen the place yet. There's an application process.
Another thing about that project is that it's obvious the asking price for the house I'm in is crazy, though not as crazy as the asking prices for a couple of other houses in Jinotega. I think Jinotega gets maybe one retiree from the US a year, and some of the older ones have died off. Nicaraguans wanting a house can get one with plumbing for washing machines and modern electrical systems, even if the houses are small.
Rebecca Brown
Reading if once
was your mistake ;-))