Here we go again
Submitted by Juanno on Wed, 2012/08/22 - 13:55.
http://www.elnuevodiario.com.ni/nacionales/261658-capturan-a-estadounide...
American Captured In Granada after Alleged Child Abuse.
Rey (Ray?) George is in custody for allegedly sexually exploiting girls ages 12 to 16 years.
"The victims came from very poor neighborhoods of the town and came to the subject's home looking for money, but he took the opportunity to satisfy his sexual desires".
Report suggest he would lock them up.
Police now say his real name is George Clinton.
On the day of the arrest, he was found inside the house in the company of a schoolgirl of 12, who tried to escape during the police operation.
The trial is scheduled for September 3.
Latest news report: Make that George Clinton Jackson...police say he was in Nicaragua Illegally (whatever that means but Rebecca will be glad to hear it)...
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This is from the Votz case, but applies to others
http://www.amazon.com/Gringo-Nightmare-American-Framed-Nicaragua/dp/0312... Kenneth Morris's review. The thing is that people come here for a range of purposes, and some people seem to feel that even people who confessed to what they did should be able to get off (Givner here, and if he gets off, I'll be tempted to help the Jinotegans lynch him). We had various people says that he should have left Nicaragua because the US wouldn't have extradited him.
Morris's very significant point is:
"Volz's political conjectures ultimately establish the theme of his book, which is that gringos should beware before they venture into a corrupt backwater like Nicaragua lest they endure a similar miscarriage of justice. Indeed, the book jacket declares that "this story should be issued with every passport."
"But this is not a fair theme. The fairer theme is frankly the one that Nicas make of the story, namely that rich gringos come to Nicaragua, get away with even murder, and Nicas need to be careful of them. Interestingly, stripped of his speculations, Volz's own story verifies this Nicaraguan theme. The guy he fingers for the murder was also a rich gringo (albeit with Nicaraguan roots) whose only advantage over Volz was to have paid off the right people when he was arrested. If Volz is right about whom he suspects, the story remains identical with only the name of the culprit changed. This story is that rich gringo came down to Nicaragua, killed Jimézez, and got away with it. As such it is a cautionary tale for Nicas more than it is for yanquis."
Morris wrote an excellent book on Ortega (including a rather candid discussion of the step-daughter's allegations), and if he's the Ken who commented on the NicaraguaDispatch article on this new Granada case, he seems to understand the problems with under-enforcement of consent laws and regulation of prostitution rather well. As he says, it's a blight on tourist trade that's not about hiring sex workers who are not of legal age to work as prostitutes.
Also, Costa Rica -- 15 is the age of consent if you're under 18. Lots of misinformation on this one out there. Here are some links so people don't misunderstand the law there:
http://travelcostaricanow.com/index.php/Legal_AGE_to_do_STUFF
And from: http://www.ageofconsent.com/costarica.htm
V. Prostitution of minors 'Aggravated proxenetism'. Penal code 170 "The punishment shall be four to ten years prison in the following cases: 1. If the victim is under eighteen years of age 2. When deceipt, violence, abuse of authority or any type of intimidation or coersion is used; and 3. If the author should be ascending or descending relative, brother, husband, tutor or legal guardian of the education, care or custody of the victim."
And http://doingcostarica.blogspot.com/2011/08/video-sex-prosititution-in-co... (which points out that prosecution is hit or miss).
So, if anyone ever again repeats that sex with 15 year old prostitutes in Costa Rica is legal, they're wrong. I've posted that this was not true earlier, but thought that three points of information about this might be necessary to actually make an impression. Hiring under 18 hookers is good for four to ten years in a Costa Rican prison.
As for expatriates facing the Nicaraguan justice system:
People who didn't commit the crimes they're accused and convicted of in the US aren't unheard of, either. And people get off on technicalities and with good defense lawyers (one of my friends was a lawyer who knew he got a murderer off and who walked across the street to become a prosecutor after the verdict was in).
Of the various trials, probably Puracal's was the most egregiously a wrongful conviction. Wtih Votz, his staff were the people who vouched for him, and after seeing people here wish Givner had escaped or who tried to figure out how he could get away with it by getting bail and fleeing Nicaragua, I think there's a subset of expatriates who don't think crimes against Nicaraguans count, that Nicaraguan justice will always be wrong, and that helping someone evade justice here is okay.
As for crazies -- more and more jurisdictions in the US are simply not allowing not guilty by way of insanity because too many people have walked out of institutions and committed further crimes. And if someone tries to hide evidence or claims self-defense, that's a clue that while they may be mentally ill, they do know what they did was wrong.
I'm glad the prosecutor is sending the current case back to the police for better evidence. If they've got it, the guy should be nailed hard.
Rebecca Brown
Not only the rich gringos
If you have the right connections and plenty money it doesn´t matter where you´re from. Yes we have a corrupt system and that´s the way it´s always been.
I suspect that if John Du Pont had killed his wrestler in DE
...(Delaware, US), instead of Pennsylvania, he would have gotten a short stay in a mental hospital instead of dying in prison. There have been cases in the US where an obvious criminal got off because people like that don't do things like that, and a couple have almost gotten off.
Eminent domain in the US has been rather egregiously abused, too, by corporations who wanted to relocate inside cities. A case went to the Supreme Court several years ago and the Supremes ruled that if a corporation promises to pay more taxes than a working class community, the government can condemn the houses where the corporation wants to build and force the owners to sell. Admittedly, they get paid "fair market value" for the houses, but I've seen how tremendously not interested people are in having their neighborhoods disrupted, and a working safe urban neighborhood has more value than the total value of the individual houses.
Rebecca Brown
Cost of Entry
Having worked for government in the US, the main difference I see is that the cost of the right connection is lower in the US but the concept is the same.
the cost of the right connection is lower in the US
Really?
Oops
That's what happens whey you are trying to write when others think you need someone talking on the radio in the background when using a computer. Make that higher, much higher.
Something maybe not quite right
The Prosecution has sent the file back to the police for more evidence.
His lawyer says he should go free.
12 year old girl says she was there to collect a text book she left behind before and it seems she is not admitting he did anything to her.
Lawyer says Jackson was married to a Granadian who died and that she had a daughter previously (not them)
Clinton is in the country illegally but they still have not said what that means but that is why, according to his lawyer, they will not let him go.
He explained that his client told him that a year ago the police took his passport. "I can not say from when he has stayed in the country, because the police took his passport and now it does not appear anywhere," he quoted.
Ana's observation
She asked why this stuff was always happening in Granada (and she said Rivas but I don't remember any cases) as there are certainly more people in Managua? While the Gringo density in Managua is lower than in Granada, I would still expect more Gringos live there.
I have never been in Granada (really!) but in Estelí my feeling is that the community watches what is going on. When I was first living there I had lots of kids visiting because I had a TV and an computer they could use. There were almost never parents there but I certainly felt they knew where their kids were and that they were safe.
When I moved to the other end of Estelí, a friend was remodeling her house. First, her two oldest daughters were living with me, her whole family for a while (her and four kids), back to the two daughters and finally just one who decided "it was best to move out" when I was about to get married. At first, Dora (the mom) would stop by daily to make sure all was OK. It was and that quickly dropped back to weekly.
At the time I thought about how this seemed very different from how it would play out in the US, particularly in a fair-sized city but quicly realized that in a US city you probably didn't even know your neighbor's name. In Estelí, pretty much everyone knew everything. Thus, I guess my question here is whether things are very different in Granada.
Then there were 5
How many victims?
Dubious looking fellow with the neck collar and feminine characterstics.
Just a few years ago there were no Gringos in Nicaragua's correctional institutions-now 5 so looking at the growth rate percentage alone (2 this year so far) is quite high.
I read that India has a dozen or so inmates from US, UK, etc and they house them together. They play cards, checkers, chess. One guy is even allowed to have a pet cat.
Nic would be shooting themselves in the foot if they demanded visas and background checks from US citizens. But because is so cheap to live you are getting more and more reprobates.
Problem with Nica is that for mainstream tourists(not backpackers) the threshhold to take a flight comes up short compared to other countries. They need things for people to do-hotel rooms is cart before the horse. What about a tram from Granada to top of Mombacho?
Nicaragua could start demanding residency for people living here
I think any country that's poor and not always on the best terms with the US knows that it's going to get people who figure they can hide out here.
Panama had the serial killer from NC. And Costa Rica had its own twisted expatriate drifter killer, so the only real fix is for the countries down here to work with the FBI and Interpol on ID'ing people who shouldn't be traveling without supervision. This problem has nothing to do with tourism or lack of tourist developments. Both those countries are more developed for tourism than Nicaragua, and they also had problem people showing up.
Neither Givner or this guy look like backpackers to me.
Rebecca Brown
NL member?
As the only comment so far fingers NL and it's dueño specifically as being accued of promoting child abuse, I am just wondering how many Gringo alleged child abusers get their inspiration from this site.
Let me say that I certainly don't nor ever have promoted child abuse, or abuse of anyone/anything, nor do I know of any NL members who have. While the Gringo population of NL is clearly higher than the Nicaraguan population, I don't think you will find people here, Gringo or otherwise, who promote or encourage such behaviour.
We had one member...
...who defended the guy who was busted for hiring the 15 year old twins. I assume he's long gone by now. I think he came in asking the usual questions about living here, then started in on how he expected to be able to have a live-in housekeeper mistress cheap, and how Nicaragua should give him some land, then ended up defending the practice of buying young poor women since it was so utterly helpful to them and how did it hurt. I believe I remembered the right name and if that was the person, he is still a member. I'll send you a private message in case I'm mistaken, but someone did defend the guy who hired the twins and was annoyed that the mother didn't take the money to forget it. You probably can check the past messages.
He was my poster boy for "don't trust anyone just because they want to move here." I remembered it very vividly because he was talking about coming to Jinotega.
So, yes, one Nicaragua Living member did defend someone who broke Nicaragua age of consent laws. Not at the time, a resident of Nicaragua, but definitely a member of the Forum, and threatening to come here (as Jinotega). We could have the town threatening to lynch two gringos if that had happened.
Rebecca Brown
I sincerely hope that the comment on the El Nuevo Diario piece
is not the work of a demented member on here.
I read both papers on line every day and have never, ever seen a reference to this site.
Reading between the lines, it has an all too familiar "flogging the dead horse" ring to it.
This Comment Was
even more interesting:
"Para efectuar una CAPTURA, Hay que tener EVIDENCIAS, No se puede actuar por el CHISME DE LAS VECINAS,"
I took the liberty of correcting the typo neter to tener
I hope this doesn't turn out to be another "Puracal" (Please see definition following line).
Puracal, noun, a judicial mistake, false imprisionment, an egregious miscarriage of justice.
There HAS been an odd obsession with pedophilia by one of our members, and a casual smearing of every male member on the site by veiled inference and out of context quotes. I've met quite a few NicaLiving members, either personally or by PM and email, and have yet to have found a pedophile among the lot.
Let's move one. I prefer the US model: presumed innocent until proven guilty, to the Nicaraguan judiciary's inability to differentiate between chisme and evidencia.
I think the site is extremely trusting of any random male
Someone who was defending the Granada patron of the 15 year old twin prostitutes IS a member here, though I hope not in Nicaragua.
http://www.nicaliving.com/node/19880 (Like I said, I do good Google searches).
I had two points: (a) not everyone who shows up here is a Good Person, and (b) the site is read by more than just its members. The first point was proved by RalphR. I think the second point has been proved, too. One of the things a site like this has to take into consideration is that people can hear about it from people whose English may not be that good and who may over-generalize or not get irony or satire (vices of our culture).
I don't think that you or Phil or most of the saner and smarter member condone such sentiments, but you both can be in denial about what kinds of people can become members here.
I think you're too intelligent to believe I'm demented, so which one of the crazies did you think did it, or have I over-estimated your intelligence and independence of mind?
Rebecca Brown
"the site"?
I think you should clarify what you mean by "the site". Rebecca, If we have a problem with a person, we kick them off, and we're not going to broadcast it. You aren't aware of who is or isn't a member unless they post or you see them logged in.
If there's a problem with a pedophile, tell the police and tell us. Just be very sure about it rather than assume every person wanting a live in maid is looking for a mistress. As well as being really insulting, it leaves you and the site open to libel. I think it's bad enough to go around insulting people but really stupid to go around insulting strangers. I also wouldn't single out the men because women can be sex tourists too.
Perhaps we should make a discouraging statement and post it in some prominent place.
The person didn't show up in Nicaragua
If you guys got rid of him, good for you, but you might have also pulled the posts defending the man arrested in Granada for hiring underaged prostitutes (I honestly wish there was not the conflation of pedophile in terms of having sex with pre-pubescents, where it's always rape, and having sex with people who are too immature to be good judges of situations, which may or may not be illegal, but which tends to be sleazy but not in the same category as assaults on pre-pubescent children). They are Google-able.
People should simply be a little less trusting of incoming strangers and be a bit more aggressive about jumping down someone's throat who is defending illegal activity. If you booted the guy and left his profile up, then that was that, but you also left his posts up.
Phil was asking people who get leads here to treat the resources they're given politely. My reply to that was that perhaps we should not be giving people leads and contacts to other people without being a bit more cautious. That poster was an example. I'm particularly upset because I also was offering help with checking out Jinotega.
I've been trying to think of why some people, generally middle class or upper middle class, are so amazingly trusting of people in general that they don't pick up on problematic body language, on things that are too good to be true, or on statements that defend what is to me not really defensible even as a word game.
Most middle class people in their usual habitats don't run into truly problematic people that often. They may know what the signs are in their culture for the occasional problem drinker, but they don't expect to meet killers or thieves over aged 15. My sister's neighborhood in Southern California had Dr. Jeffery McDonald for a neighbor for a while and just couldn't believe that he killed his wife and daughter. The neighbors who are always surprised by the serial killer next door or whatever -- I didn't miss someone who'd been introduced through a friend casing my place and moved my things out when I went away for a while (he still go a few things).
I don't assume that someone defending a man busted for hiring 15 year old twins for sex is simply speculating. Perhaps the individual would himself never hire a 15 year old hooker, but he is defending people who do. He thinks the mother of the girls should have taken that wonderful economic opportunity and dropped charges for $10K or $20K or whatever it was.
You can read what the guy posted -- if that seems harmless to you, we'll simply agree to disagree. People don't have to be caught hiring 15 year old hookers where that's illegal to be problematic.
Rebecca Brown
Of course, leaving the posts
Of course, leaving the posts there, lets the guy incriminate himself.
My mother used to say
If the cap fits, wear it.
Thanks for admitting you're wrong.
I saw the comments finally and had to run them through Google Translate. The guy was referring to earlier stuff (before I was on the site).
Rebecca Brown
Goes To Show
that you can't be too careful. Innuendo and gossip seems to routinely trump evidence. Ask Jason . . .