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More on this ongoing saga of asylum...
Submitted by mujermagnetica on Fri, 2010/02/05 - 14:29.
I have learned that no news of my husband will be provided to anyone but a family member. From what I'm told, he is in a location different than where I was told...a place I believe is called (Adnor??) where asylum applicants are held to determine if their case has merit or if they will be granted asylum. I'm not sure what this is completely, but I'm told it is not a jail. Yet when my husband called me yesterday morning, he said there were cells nearby, so I am very confused. And I don't know if he thought he was about to endure the same thing as in the U.S. or he was simply fearing more of the same.
I am arranging a flight and will be coming to Nicaragua to stay in his apartment with friends helping me. The saga continues...
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Maybe this is of any help
Maybe this is of any help:
No. 655 LEY DE PROTECCIÓN A REFUGIADOS 9 de Julio del 2008 describes the asylum procedures in Nicaragua. It is a rather fair procedure. You may be interested in Art. 9c, 10b and 22b.
If your husband entered the country illegally (or if he is suspected of this), he can be held in the detention center of DME and he might be subject to prosecution. If he stayed legally in the country he can't be detained otherwise than during the interview period.
The asylum process begins with a preliminary interview held by the head of the detention center. The government of Nicaragua is the only one who can give refugee status. UNHCR (ACNUR in Spanish) participates as an observer during the process. It could be that the detention center for legal asylum applicants is called "ACNUR" by DME officials, because it is monitored by ACNUR and it is therefore different than the DME detention center for illegal refugees at DME.
The Central America-4 (CA-4) Border Control Agreement was a treaty signed in June 2006 between the Central American nations of El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Nicaragua, establishing the free movement across borders between the four signatory states of its citizens without any restrictions or checks. Foreign nationals who enter one of the signatory countries can also travel to other signatory states without having to obtain additional permits or to undergo checks at border checkpoints. Similar to the Schengen Agreement in Europe, the CA-4 Agreement establishes a harmonized visa regime for foreign nationals traveling to the area.
VERY helpful! Muchas gracias a usted!
And it has eased my mind, because it duplicates what the woman from the Ministerio de Relaciones Exteriores was telling me. "ACNUR" not "ADNOR" is where he is being held, and it would be logical now, based on the fact that he had no stamp on his passport from entering by bus from El Salvador. They might have thought he entered illegally and needed to check things out and I don't blame them for that. He has the bus documents to prove the date he entered, so this should be fine. This is all making a great deal of sense now. And since the CA-4 agreement only seems to cover travel, it also makes sense that he would have to apply for asylum for residency and a cedula.
If this is the process, then I feel as if they are giving him a fair chance. And I have to report that the treatment I have received as his wife has been both kind and compassionate, so that I feel Nicaragua has been very professional in the way they have handled his application. So now I will wait and see if they will offer him asylum and this episode will be over finally.
Thank you so much for clarifying this. You don't know how much stress you have removed from me. And hearing this:
"A) Considering the principle of the familiar unit, the condition of refugee will be extended to the spouse or the pair together with stable fact and the minor children of the person who has been recognized like refugee. Also one will extend to the other members of the familiar group that depend on the refugee" may solve a great deal of my problems as well. But I am still proceeding with my application for residency as a pensiando at this time, until I hear otherwise to be safe.
Can someone explain the CA-4 Agreement for me
I can't find enough about it. I want to know exactly what it covers. All I can find on the internet is that it provides travel between the four countries, but I'm looking at residency information as well.
Do any of you have a site you can refer me to either in Spanish or English that outlines the basic fundamentals of this agreement? Everything I've learned about this is from my husband and his friends, but I would like to read the agreement for myself, so that I understand if we've done something wrong.
I'm more confused than you are
From what I understand, he entered Nicaragua by legally traveling into the CA-4 country group (Guatemala, I believe). He is from El Salvador who is also a CA-4 member. He requested asylum some time ago. But, now, he is being detained.
Now, if he is here legally (because of the CA-4 agreement) I just don't understand the detainment.
That is a question we are all asking...
And the other question is why he has to ask for asylum at all with a CA-4 agreement. Because our understanding of this agreement is that he should be able to cross borders of all Central American countries who signed the agreement as a citizen of one of its member countries, to live and work and the other member countries can do the same. We asked our friends there and they believed the same. Now we are told this is not true. None of this is making any sense to any of us. He is there on a 90 day tourist visa, which we understood was a legal form of entry. We are trying to comply with all the laws there by filing the appropriate documents and trying to do all the right things.
An odd thing happened about a month ago. We were told that four men arrived at his apartment complex, asking about "the Salvadoran that lived there." They said the men sat there for about an hour and left shortly before he returned. We were told by a friend that these men were dressed in Immigration uniforms, but immigration uniforms "of a more formal nature"...which neither of us understood. (The person explaining this is Nicaraguan and had worked previously in a top position with the Nicaraguan government). And so my husband went to the office and learned that no one had searched for him. We were concerned for a few weeks but he went about his usual routine and nothing more happened from that. We chalked it up to a mistake.
Now, I'm growing deeply concerned, because I can't even call his cell phone. And yesterday, his number of rings were changed from 4 to none before the message played. I wondered if they had shut off his phone. Nobody can get through although by now his battery is likely dead. At this point, I'm wondering if my husband is too, and this is why I can't get any information. This is why I am coming down there. I need answers, even if I'm being reassured by immigration that he is fine and safe. I have no idea what ADNOR is. Does anyone know?
try not to worry
It isn't unusual to hold immigrants in detention facilities while sorting out immigration issues nor is it unusual that a detention facility will not allow cell phone use. Typically, his possessions will be checked until he is released. They will hold him until they can verify his story.
When he is allowed to call you, he will be worried if he can't reach you. So as difficult as it seems to stay put, going to Nicaragua now might not be the best idea.
I used to write security systems software for those kind of places.
What worries me were the questions...
They wanted to know why he was held for 3 years in the U.S. and if he had a record there. He was told he might have to go to the U.S. (which he can't since he was deported) and obtain his background check and have it interpreted formally into Spanish and authenticated. I sent immigration an email explaining I had copies of all his documents from when he was detained in the U.S. including any and all background checks and findings.
I sent copies of character references of people we knew who are professionals,both in Mexico and in the U.S. They are more concerned about the fact we lived in Mexico for so many years and then he was in detention for three years in the U.S. than his entire time in El Salvador. And his background checks are clean, so there is no reason for this.
I told them our business name in Mexico, and that I would be more than happy to provide our documents there and any past addresses we lived at there, before we came to the border, but they are included in the records of his entry to the U.S. I'm wondering if he is being branded as a criminal or something false. There are so many things going through my head that I can't even get my thoughts together.
And I keep wondering at what point does this all end and people realize we are two decent people who simply want to live in a safe place and live peacefully. We aren't trying to amass great wealth. We don't want to become involved in any political causes. We simply want a place that will accept the two of us as a married couple and allow us to live a peaceful and safe life, even a very simple life. And it is beginning to feel like we are two people without a country. You begin to feel like a fugitive, as if you've done something wrong when you know you haven't. I was told by a Salvadoran attorney yesterday that we should have never applied for legal status. That we should have just lived there illegally and that was the one thing neither of us wanted to do, because we wanted to respect the laws and become meaningful members of our new country...maybe even helpful to others. I can't imagine any people who would be more appreciative of just one country that would allow us to live together in peace after our last three years.
I have very strong political beliefs as does he, but neither of us ever wanted to bring that to a country that was not ours. I really don't understand any of this. And I'm feeling like the next place we go we will lie and simply live as transients for the rest of our lives. And this is very disturbing to me, because neither of us are law breakers!
Sending "suits" to his
Sending "suits" to his apartment and asking about Mexico and the U.S. are consistent with checking out his story. They probably do want to ensure he's not a criminal. El Salvador may have checked out okay already. But it bothers me too that the U.S. couldn't just deport him and that someone advised him to seek asylum. From what you have said, that's most likely the reason they're holding him.
I think it's important that he can reach you and that immigration can reach you if they need documentation, especially translated and notorized in the U.S. If you go to Nicaragua, you may or may not feel better but probably won't be as useful.
From what I have observed here
"I have very strong political beliefs as does he, but neither of us ever wanted to bring that to a country that was not ours. I really don't understand any of this. And I'm feeling like the next place we go we will lie and simply live as transients for the rest of our lives."
This just about tells it all. Please don't take this as criticism, but look: Your husband is looking for asylum, he likely like you has kept a high profile and a anti government profile. And you are surprised they don't want him? Who wants to invite a "troublemaker" ?
Sorry but from the limited information I have, if I were the receiving country I'd be careful as well.
In any case, if I had a family member looking for asylum anywhere, I'd keep very quiet. Remember, the world is getting smaller every day.
Best of luck and don't discard any offers for help until you are certain you don't need them.
Very telling legal advice
"I was told by a Salvadoran attorney yesterday that we should have never applied for legal status".
So here is what I think the Nica immigration guys are looking at;
A former US illegal resident.
Has exhausted all avenues there.
Can't go back to El Salvador.
Was released from the US on an El Salvadoran passport (?)
Allowed to enter Nicaragua as a visitor for 90 days.
Which has now expired.
They have now matched this history to his residency application.
And spoken to the El Salvador authorities
In the absence of any other concrete facts, and not knowing if the Nicaraguan authorities knew he was coming, or had agreed to "take him", I would agree with that bad legal advice.
We're left to assume . . .
. . . that he was a member of Mara Salvatrucha or Mara-18 or some other LA-to-&-from-Salvador gang that has left him readily identified (once proudly) with plainly visible tattoos (such as on his forehead). And he may have been working as a coyote or a drug runner, but the Feds only have circumstantial evidence, not enough to throw him in the calaboose. His fear of being returned to El Salvador may be due to expected gangbanger justice, if he crossed them; or the abuse at the hands of the Salvadoran police. Of course, they say that "to assume" makes an ass of u & me. So tell me I'm wrong.
It surprises me how strong a stance Nicaragua, and for that Venezuela, have taken against los narcotraficantes. It seems to be more than mere public posturing. Which isn’t to say use & transport of dope won’t grow anyway, so much money is involved.
Daddy Yo, step away from the Black Widow Spider....
She could be NSA.
I mean, she has gone from living in a van down by the river to travelling "anywhere in the world" and shipping a container of goods. (By the way it's not full, need some stuff brought down?)
Or maybe
It's a cover for setting up a big drug operation here. And Juanno you now owe me for interspersing my post and MM's sure to come tirade. This will shelter you for your NSA answer. I welcome it and will read it at halftime. Don't hurry MM...we can wait
ZZT
Or it could be
that Juanno is a secret operative for the CIA posing as a Canadian/Muslim/British guy, or whatever he finds more useful for argument sake at the time, watching U.S. citizens down in little ol' socialist countries. It also could be that some people drank too much last night in preparation for Superbowl Sunday. It could be any number of things.
But it just may be...that some people can't see outside of their own shallow perceptions of life enough, or haven't been outside of their own world enough to realize that they don't have a clue about the rest of the world.
Who knows? ;)
jajajajajaj
Juanno secret???????? ROFL Canadian/Muslim/British secret operative? For sure!
Good one mm!
Hey, we agree again
In this world could be about anything. Even looks like the Saints could beat the Colts. Who Dat?ZZT
I'm going to take a bath now Z
Because agreeing with you too much...well... :) Go SAINTS!
Another stereotype
But the usual types of naive assumptions made by those who sit piously on their cracked pedestal and judge others.
I wish sometimes he had been a drug runner, because I would easily pay off some people like narcotráficantes do, and move very easily where ever I chose. As a matter of fact, they might sponsor us. And I would have a sufficient bank account to move anywhere in the world I chose, and travel back and forth would not even be a thought. Also, if he had some "plainly visible tattoos" from a gang, based on Daniel Ortega's views against narcotráficantes, I'm confident he would have been escorted out of the country by now, not sitting in ACNUR having his application for asylum reviewed, separate from criminals.
I think your post was a good script for some suspense movie though and I thank you for a wonderful belly laugh.
I do have a question though...why would a North American self-admitted gringo assume a Latino applying for asylum was a gang member or narcotráfico? Is that your general analysis of Latinos and our culture?
More speculation on the Salvadoran mystery case
Sure, lady, why not play a stereotype? It´s going with the odds, afterall. And you are playing with us, right? Also, you write a clever non-denial denial, wrapped in the fluff of counterattack spittle.
You've written your guy into a magnetic mystery padded with seemingly honest questions for advice/information. For the sake of what otherwise might pass for civil conversation, those of us block-headed enought to still be counted as your readers, must make wild-ass guesses at why he has so much trouble getting asylum, or why he would even want or need it in another CA-4 country, when his homeland is also a CA-4 country.
You, of course, are baiting us by not fessing up to what it is about your Salvadoran that makes him such a special case. Admittedly when I put a Mara Salvatrucha tattooed head on your man I was thinking Queequeg, that spiritual savage whose hand-carved casket saved Ishmael when the Pequod went under, a nod to your writing skills.
For others as dumb as me who are still reading this tripe, I want to submit another wild-ass guess. . . . . . as residents of Mexico "for so many years" the unnamed business that el parejamagnetica had there may currently be on the U.S. Treasury's black list, as having been bankrolled by one of the narco-syndicates as a money laundering operation. Some beneficiaries of their largess are actually innocent of any direct involvement in dope/arms operations, but their claims of total innocence of what they're involved in ring of profound naiveté.
Paranoid personality disorders...
I notice you are from New Jersey from your profile. I am thinking your assumptions about my situation are about as hilarious and stereotypical as if I were to assume you are part of the mafia, in some Goodfellas, “fogeddaboudid” style of thinking; because you are from New Jersey (a place known for many interesting union negotiations) and now living in Leon? Your posts have about as much amusement as me presuming you live in Leon now to avoid a pair of cement shoes for taking kick backs on union contracts, awarded to you by the Bonanno family. So, should I wonder if your interest in Nicaragua lies in moving mafia operations south of the border on behalf of some crime boss? The same way you are trying to paint a rather creative picture of me?
If our business interests in Mexico were registered with the U.S. Treasury’s blacklist and financed by cartels, I would think Mexico’s SIEDO, Subprocuraduría de Investigación Especializada en Delincuencia Organizada would be requesting my husband for extradition, instead of him sitting in ACNUR. I would think they might have me in prison up here, investigating me as well; rather than posting in this forum, since the business was in my name too. It may just be me, but I have a theory that cartel members or suspected cartel members, or even mafia members are probably listed on some Interpol list of people wanted or worth looking into -- and easily checked out by Nicaraguan investigators. Something like this?
http://www.interpol.int/public/OrganisedCrime/Default.asp
or this:
http://www.interpol.int/Public/Wanted/Fugitives/Default.asp
And I doubt my husband would have gone to the office to register for asylum, after 3 years in the states of being checked out, if he were running from the law. Maybe it’s just me, but I have enough confidence in DME’s ACNUR, that I’m sure they probably have some top notch people investigating asylum applicants, but maybe you know better? If so, please enlighten us, okay? I would assume any number of criminal enterprises you might concoct in your extremely creative mind might be registered as such. You do realize that countries do background checks with Interpol these days, no? Maybe you should write your own novel.
On the other hand, it is a bit insulting to that you stereotype Salvadorans asking for asylum the way you do, in some cultural category as if a person who is Salvadoran has to be a criminal. It sounds like you have some unresolved issues with Salvadorans, believing in some odd way that they aren’t intelligent enough to be able to resist the “temptations” of crime, and as offensive as that is, the naivety is a bit humorous too.
Or, maybe you simply like to assassinate people’s character because of some inherent weakness. Maybe a Personality Disorder many expatriates suffer from and never address, sometimes running to foreign countries to escape a bad life in the states. Maybe something like this?
https://health.google.com/health/ref/Paranoid+personality+disorder
It certainly wouldn’t be the first case of an expatriate demonstrating this type of escape. And it would explain some of your bizarre conclusions and posts about me.
Both of you wrong on many assumptions
For one thing, he isn't into posting in forums on the internet. Second, most of his friends share his views so he has no reason to argue his opinions when his friends have Communist names and he is a socialist in a socialist country. And third, he isn't like me. He is a great deal more polite about his beliefs, where I will argue them to the core if I perceive someone is blind or ignorant about the subject. He will simply walk away thinking the person is too ignorant to waste time on.
As for posting this on the internet, I'm also publishing a book, so it seems ridiculous to worry about complaining about how the U.S. treated us when I'm about to publish a book about it. Another thing about the internet is that in publishing our story it not only may help someone else, but it also keeps him safe by announcing things. It worked well in the states when they tried to deport him under a fake name.
Juanno, yours are the most ridiculous of all. My husband was not a "U.S. illegal resident." He didn't even finish his case in the U.S. before he was deported, so he didn't exhaust all avenues there. He still had a few appeals pending that we've filed from outside of the U.S. He was a resident of Mexico and a citizen of El Salvador. His 90 day tourist visa is not expired for Nicaragua, otherwise they would have carted him to the border, I assume. If they spoke to Salvadoran authorities, they know he has no criminal record and they also know he has a valid asylum claim.
I think your lack of experience in these matters is apparent from your assumptions. You are stereotyping on exactly what you don't know about many immigrants who ask for asylum. Stop being so smug about knowing so little and assuming so much and learn about asylum and why people apply. You might gain some valuable knowledge. Or maybe you are just being your normal argumentive self. Whatever works for you.
I am confused
Some people are trying to understand and to help. You are taking a very defensive stance and you assume they know all the facts.
I for one wish you and your husband all the best of luck.
PS. Never underestimate how may strings this "Chele" can pull in this country if he wants to.
I have been more than polite and understanding (this time).
I have asked you to fill in the blanks, but you didn't. My assessment was based on my experience here (which I know in itself raises your temperature), my experience as a law enforcement officer and also as a government investigator, (on two continents). So you may be right, maybe I am not seen by you as worthy of giving any any advice. I was simply pointing out a list of boxes they would need to check. Sorry you took it another way, I hope there are people that can help you.
Actually, very little "raises my temperature"
But your statements tell me a great deal about your lack of experience in the area of asylum, because you reach very limited conclusions and assume a stereotypical profile of asylum applicants (which I've already stated doesn't apply to us). And since you have never been an asylum applicant, I'm not sure your law enforcement experience is applicable to our situation or provides much understanding of the process we are experiencing, or that we've learned some others have experienced. And sometimes a police officer or other law enforcement types arrive to a situation with certain prejudices because of the element they are forced to deal with on a daily basis...which I'm sure is frustrating.
I don't hate law enforcement types or you, and have many friends who work in this field. But they realize their limitations with regards to our case...even attorneys are admitting to this in some cases. And I am being very patient in trying to explain this to you. Enforcing laws and interpreting them are two very different skill sets. And my mother-in-law is an attorney in Central America, so we have a wonderful resource.
Yes, you are right.
Again, I hope you find the people that can help you. Adios y Vaya con Dios
Nicareal, I believe YOU do wish us well after speaking to you
but I see no point in people representing falsehoods about our case without even knowing anything about it. It doesn't help, it muddles things. And I don't think setting the record straight is defensive, it is correcting untruths and that's a biggy with me.
I don't underestimate you or your abilities as a "Chele". As I have told you personally, I have no reason to. But what I'm learning is that if it is going to happen it will and if not, it will not. After speaking with my family, I'm realizing that it is pointless to even come to Nicaragua until immigration makes their decisions. And I guess I'm realizing that if the worst happens, we will find another country to move to. It may be frustrating, but if you did know our story, you'd realize I'm a fighter and so is he. And you might even admire us. People who know what happened to us and how we fought do, even people who hate immigrants.
Forget it. She's more
Forget it. She's more interested in writing a book. Something here smells really bad, and it's gotten to the point where I'm not sure I want to know any more.
LOL...try deoderant...JUUUUUUUST KIDDING!
I think what smells bad for people here is that I won't share our complete story and they feel a need to know, which is human nature. Sometimes when people are in our situation, they cannot share the story until a certain time, for a plethora of reasons. And if you don't want to know more, then do not read my blogs...it's that simple.
I am sharing the story, but in a way that enhances our life, not in a way that damages or endangers it. And in our situation, that is the wisest thing a person can do. So there are things that people will not understand and just as I may not understand why a person reads my blog if they feel I'm full of b.s. Not everything in this world is to be understood.
For instance, I do not understand the Haitian incident where nine people are being taken to court. I'm curious, but I wouldn't have the gall to insist these people damage their future by sharing that which they don't wish to. I would hope they make the wisest choices for them.
So I'm not about to damage myself over a person's idle curiosity.
Sounds Like Peter Christopher
In Drag . . . .
Why are we wasting our time? Like Christopher's story, it's impossible to come to an intelligent opinion without all the facts available. There is a lack of honesty that is off-putting.
The ICE detention system came about for two reasons: First, people who were originally trusted to appear at their immigration hearings simply disappeared. This went on for years and years. Some committed serious crimes, others made good lives for themselves and their families. In both cases their continued presence in the US was both illegal and undocumented. I personally don't feel that we should have to live with 12+ million illegal and undocumented immigrants in our country.
Although the asylum process has valid goals, it too was grossly abused by many who simply wanted to bypass the normal immigration procedures and jump the line. Determining who has a valid claim for asylum can be time-consuming, difficult and expensive. Just because some other country does not want you is NOT a valid claim for asylum.
And second, much of this abuse was ignored until 9/11 when we found out that some very bad people had abused our generous visa opportunities and killed 3000 people and did billions of dollars in damages to our country and our economy.
You see parallels in this blog: posters want to be generous and believe, but the lack of complete information makes it difficult. Something is held back. One wonders how someone can solicit sympathy for her cause and then say "So I'm not about to damage myself over a person's idle curiosity".
The Haitian church group's situation does not seem to provide a good analogy to the situation described here. They had rented a closed hotel in the Dominican Republic to shelter the children, had the permission of the children's parents to take the children and take care of them. They were technically in violation of the law, but had no plans to traffic in the children. I think, in the backs of all our minds is the thought: "They should have just paid the bribe the Haitian border guards solicited and been on their way :)
The validity of your statements???????
I could argue with you tit for tat about why the I.C.E.detention system was created referencing historical systems before I.C.E. but it would be a waste of time. Including the fact that a for-profit prison system enriched some corporate executive's pocket books when simply placing ankle monitoring systems would have saved U.S. taxpayers millions of dollars and accomplished the same thing at a huge savings. But you will not accept anything but your own views, so I won't waste my time.
Anyone who can read, could argue your "points" about the need for immigrants, based on the realities of the costs of immigrants vs. the profit ratios from them, or how the revenues from the taxes they pay, or the dollars they spend impacts our economy. During "A Day Without An Immigrant" we saw how one day without them impacted the country and furthermore we saw evidence of even die hard Russel Pearce (anti-immigrant aficionado) even begged them to come back and play nice once he ran them out of Arizona and later regretted it when it brought the state to financial ruin. Ditto to a well known city in New Jersey that did the same and suffered.
Some of your points are valid, such as the criminal element; but also some of the generic stereotyping (as in tying 9/11 into your post) are a bit of hyperbole, expected in argument. Simply, immigrants died in that episode too, so there is an argument for that alone, but it worked as a wonderful scare tactic to create an ridiculous war...so the PR was great, no?
As for what posters want to learn and what they want to believe about my case, that is not my social responsibility. An intelligent person realizes it is impolite to delve into another person's business, once they tell you they don't wish to share more. It's that simple. So, I'm not going to concern myself with what mythical or fantasy perceptions a few come up with about my blogs. As I said, if a person isn't interested, there IS another option, and it is likely that this is not a situation that will ever affect them.
The blogs are to help those that it MAY effect, and those who realize not all U.S. propaganda about immigration with manufactured statistics formed by organizations like FAIR, VDARE, John Tanton, Tom Tancredo and other wacko white racialist separatist groups financed by the National Alliance and manned by its skinheads is anything more than that. There is enough information from credible sources that refute this garbage.
Asylum is a legal process, (not quite as simple as you have estimated) but it is a process. What is sad is that it is represented as something moral when it is nothing of the sort. I don't need sympathy "for my cause" any more than I need a supremely naive judgment of my person. What I would like are informative posts on asylum in Nicaragua...nothing more or less. I'm intelligent enough to form my own conclusion from those facts. And you missed the context of why I posted the Haitian reference, but given the rest...