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Ice rink in Managua?
Submitted by casper on Fri, 2009/11/27 - 12:31.
Anybody know anything about this craziness? I didn't see any story in La Prensa. But here's what's going out in blogs etc. and here from InsideCostaRicatoday.com
http://insidecostarica.com/dailynews/2009/november/27/centam-09112703.ht...
Temporary ice rink causes controversy in warm Nicaragua
MANAGUA - Nicaragua's government caused controversy with the construction of a temporary ice rink that cost close to US$1.5 million dollars and was only set to be in use during December.
The tropical Nicaragua - with average temperatures of 31-34 degrees throughout the year - is the second-poorest country in the Americas, after Haiti.
Local media have strongly criticized the project in Managua as 'an excentricity,' in a country of 6 million where 70 per cent of the people live on at most us$1 dollar per day and where 60 per cent would like to go abroad to work, according to independent research.
First Lady Rosario Murillo - also the spokeswoman for the government of Sandinista President Daniel Ortega - said the 225- square-metre ice rink built near the city's waterfront Malecon on Lake Managua is set to 'give joy' to poor children.
Murillo - accompanied by several of her children and grandchildren - walked around the facility, known as the Park of Happy Girls and Boys, which was set to stand for just one month.
'We have the responsibility to bring here many children from across the country,' she said at the first ice rink ever built in Nicaragua.
City government officials said they hope to host 8,000 visitors per day at the park. Use of the ice rink - which can hold 60 skaters at any one time - is set to be free.
'We are going to have circuses, music shows, clowns, jugglers, all free, because that is what children deserve,' Murillo said.
Nicaraguan authorities did not reveal the upkeep costs of the ice rink, or the origin of the funds that were devoted to its construction.
I seriously doubt this is
I seriously doubt this is tax payer money, however no matter whos money it is, being sponsored by the government is something that should be extremely frowned upon. The government should be firm with its donors, and stress that this sort of 1 month show is not what is needed, what is needed is rebuilding of schools. The children deserve schools that do not fall in on them, they deserve working plumbing within them, and they do not deserve tented classrooms in the middle of a city.
The 1.8 million dollars that bought this "Circus" could have really done some good in the school infrastructure, which directly goes to the children of the country.
My wife and kids went to this show the other evening, they said that the juventud Sandinista was out in force with their propaganda, and in general it was very tacky, no class what so ever.
If the donor was to put this event in a space like Parque Don Bosco in Managua, or next to Edificio Pellas, and not involved the government on the event, but kept things free for the children, I may think differently about this.
example from Mexico city
Mexico City had one last winter. I am not sure whether they will have one this winter as well. It was criticized due to the same reasons. I am not sure whether it was Mexico City's left wing or the national Mexican right wing government that was behind this.
Someone should investigate this, including such points as:
-- Is it the same company that is behind both events?
-- Is this paid out of Nicaraguan tax payer money?
-- What was the impact in Mexico city?
Now in Mexico city it did not seem completely stupid to me. It's actually quite cold during December, and it's a gigantic city which sure enough has poor areas, but also lots of other activities for the middle class, and on average a higher standard of living.
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
I have been asking around a
I have been asking around a bit in Mexico. Apparently the first ice skating rink was set up in Mexico city by the leftist PRD city government a few years ago. Then in the following year, they started appearing all over the country in various state capitals that were ruled by either PRI or PAN.
So it seems like they are a success with Mexican voters.
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
Espejos y Trinquetes a cambio.....
In keeping with the Conquistadores way of dealing with the " Indios " , your gold for our glass beads , mirrors and junk . Like I said Shame on Them.
our custom..
must of the arguments i have with my relatives and many countrymen is about the means of saving and investments.
Is normal here that you see people earning $100 a month and buying nice stuff that really aren't necessary or only are out of their budget.
►Piñatas ajuaaa. Who don't like it celebrate their birthdays to their kids ?
I liked, but i prefer to build a better conditions of life and for their future.
►cars brummmmm who don't like drive a car , even if is only for pleasure?
I liked, i used to drive nice cars, but if i don't have a house, my first option is that one, i don't like it drive a Cadillac and live in a HUD house.
►candies ummmm Who children don't like candies?
but how many they don't taste a decent meal 3 times a day ?
there are my cent of two.
gaining the favor of the people isn't free
Yes ..has been covered by the "right wings" media.
This is part of the propaganda of the regime, for them is better way to gain the mind of the poor people trough deception than doing a real job attending their needs.
By example: the regime has been short of fulfill the 10,000 houses of the elections campaign promises. With this C$ 30 million cordobas or $1.5 million dollars, they can build 300 decent house for this people. Only this year were a many accidents in school in Managua and all the country because the bad shape of them, even in Managua was a couple that came down over the children.
This is something , that is easy to compare with North Korea where is a hunger and people is starving , in the mean time the regime make a big expenses making parades.
There are the link for the articles:
http://www.elnuevodiario.com.ni/nacionales/61556
http://www.elnuevodiario.com.ni/nacionales/61660
http://www.laprensa.com.ni/2009/11/25/nacionales/8736
This is the official propaganda about this
http://www.el19digital.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=8266
But if it makes the kids happy...
We all know that 1.5 million dollars is not going to cure the large-scale, systemic problems of poverty and poor infrastructure in Nicaragua. That would take many hundreds of millions or billions of dollars, and a long-term commitment. I would, of course, like to see this happen - but it's a long ways off. In the meantime, why not make some kids happy?
Sure, maybe $1.5M could build a couple hundred houses, or fix a few schools - and that benefits, what, a few hundred people? This, at an estimated 8000 visitors/day * 31 days, could brighten the lives of nearly 250,000 poor kids! Even if only half as many visitors take advantage of the park as expected, that's 125,000 children and their families benefiting - instead of a couple hundred. And besides, it's not necessarily a zero-sum game - if they didn't use this money for the ice rink, I highly doubt it would instead be invested 100% into housing.
Really, what's so bad about spreading some happiness during the holiday season? Why do you have to view everything through the cynical lens of propaganda?
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Life is what happens while we're busy making other plans
Nicole don't you think
the money would be better spent on food for the children?
For once I actually tend to agree with nicanor that even 100 homes would make a permanent impact on those 100 families. Those would likely be between 600 to 800 people with roof over their heads.
But I guess it is better to have one afternoon of fleeting fun instead.
This perspective of: But it is for the children... is so terribly wrong! The government is supposed to act like a parent. (A responsible parent). I just don't see that here.
Just think how many food baskets that money would have bought.
Sorry but on this one we are on opposite sides.
Not-zero-sum
As RSJG says, it is not necessarily a "zero-sum game". In a later post, she gave the example of drinking FdC not being zero-sum if there is another bottle behind the counter. That's not a great example (because if you drink both bottles, I still won't get any), so try this one: Solar energy. If I put out a solar panel to convert some sunlight to electricity, that does not take away sunlight or electricity from anyone else. Another (silly but true) example: Smiling at someone.
In the skating rink case, there are wealthy donors who only donate to causes that help animals, or the environment, or human rights. So perhaps the funding for this came from someone who only pays to entertain children. In that case, no matter how much you try to convince them to build a house or pay for some food, they just won't do it. If that is the case here, I could understand taking the money to entertain the (poor, starving) children.
BUT, my problem with this project is that it is an ICE skating rink. That means it will be very expensive to operate (the $1.5M is apparently only the construction costs), will consume precious electricity, will only open for a month, and will only entertain 60 people at a time. It seems like a very inefficient way to entertain children. It seems like you could take the same amount of money and send a hundred clowns and jugglers around the country. Or you could buy every child in the country a book (maybe more than one). Or you could build a ROLLER skating rink, that would be almost free to run and could go year-round.
So that's my biggest concern with this project.
Yes you're right
I realized as I wrote it that it wasn't a great example - really, you'd have to have a constantly-refilling spout to be appropriate. I was trying to be humorous, but this is a much better example.
And again, I agree that if I were made Goddess for a Day, there are better ways I would spend the money, including some of the examples you listed above were the money limited to entertainment. But the way I see it, the choices are ice rink or nothing, and given that choice - and given the wonder I've seen on Southern friends' eyes the first time they ever saw snow or ice (outside of the freezer) - I'd take the ice rink over nothing.
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Life is what happens while we're busy making other plans
sun light vs money funds
Your explanation of solar panels, maybe can work if the zero-sum that fund this project, where available for all of us, but is not the case.
In the mean time; sun light is free to use for whoever is capable to converter in useful, government fund are only disponible to party-government decision.
So take it in consideration that the funds (sun energy) that was ready in party-government hands, was already the results of all the society efforts, no matter if are funds taking from Venezuelan aid to the FSLN.
I understand clear what zero-sum game is, but this is not any game, this is a matter of government discipline and responsibility .
I can accept this ridicule theory if we would have plenty sunlight (money).
but from a government, that only this year has submitted three cut to the country budget ?
Zero-sum game
Again, "zero sum game" is not a game, despite the fact that the word game appears in it. It is a theory. Starving prisoners who are thrown a loaf of bread are in a zero-sum game. Astronauts stuck in a capsule with limited oxygen are in a zero-sum game. That doesn't make those situations "games" in the normal sense of the word.
I agree that if the ice skating rink was paid for with government money that could have been spent elsewhere, it should have been. I never heard exactly where the money came from.
Not a zero-sum game
But my point, again, was that economics on the national level is not a zero-sum game, nor do we get to choose what governmental money is spent on. Just because $x money is not spent on option a, does not necessarily mean that the same $x dollars will be spent on option b. If not spent on option a that $x may not be spent at all; it's also often possible - through diversion from other sources or through loans, etc. - that $x can be spent on option a, and still $y can be spent on option b.
To give a US example, I personally would much rather see government funds go towards healthcare, or towards alleviating poverty within the US, then be spent on war. Obama is currently debating whether to send upwards of 34,000 troops to Afghanistan, at an *annual* cost of $34 billion. If he decides not to send the troops - or if he were to even remove troops currently there, directly saving money - do you really think that $34 billion (or more) would be devoted to healthcare or food stamps? I sure wouldn't hold my breath.
If you can demonstrate that the $1.5 million used here is being diverted from funds that would otherwise go to food or housing, I would reconsider. But I highly doubt it.
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Life is what happens while we're busy making other plans
I would have to be in
I would have to be in Nicaragua and do some investigative journalism to truly be able to say whether this is reaching the goal they say, according to which the entire children's park is set to accommodate 1.1 million children during its one month of existence.
But if that is so, it does not seem like the most horrible thing in the world. It corresponds to a tax of about 25 cents per Nicaraguan, and if that means that a great part of the Nicaraguan children population will be able to have an unforgettable memory that does not seem to be that badly spent.
As Nicole correctly points: the argument "this could go against world hunger" could be used in any setting at any time against any kind of government spending, but in most cases that is not where the money in reality would be going.
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
What would you say if the government would have
spent the money on Guarro for the many drunks in the country? Or how about on Cigarettes for all the poor smokers that can't afford them. What about if they would have spent it on firecrackers so everyone can have a "Happy" New Year?
In my opinion everyone of these "options" including the one up for discussion it is equally ludicrous.
I don't really know what a 0-sum game is. All I know is this: Nicaragua does not have the money to spare to play games. Any kind of games. Maybe other countries do but we don't have any to spare here. This here is not a game, this, for many people is a matter of survival. Survival in the literal sense of the world not in the hypothetical, academic sense. Let's not forget this is still one of the poorest countries in the world.
Please forgive me if I don't buy into this bleeding heart "But its for the children" philosophy. (I wanted to use another word but in the spirit of the upcoming X-Mas season I am showing restraint...:))
As someone that grew up desperately poor for the first 10 years of his life, I am sure to have a different perspective from someone that grew up with plenty of food and clothing. I liken this scenario to the average North American at a buffet line: The plates are heaped until they overflow. Then they are barely touched and left at the table while the "diner" is lined up for a second plate just as full. In the end one person wastes enough food to feed three more people but they feel entitled to do so because they paid. How bloody sad is that? Here the government wastes, yes Nicole wastes 1.5 millon U$ because they can.
It is unlikely that someone of your generation, growing up in the USA has ever gone to bed hungry several times a week year in and out. I know that I would have much rather had a regular meal for at least a few weeks in a row. The ice rink and the clowns and the Circus would have been way down on my list of priorities.
I am not trying to convince you of anything and least of all where the money would have gone. Truth is, I have no idea where it would have gone, I don't think anyone knows.
All I know is that I think this is one of the most wasteful and loony tunes way of throwing away money that could have been put to better use.
In addition my taxes here help pay, at least to a small part, for this lunacy, so that gives me at least the right to disagree with this expenditure.
I am always one of the first to give this government credit when the deserve it, but I'll be darned if I keep my mouth shut when they do something silly and wasteful as this.
OK
OK, I'll step down here. You're right, Jon - I was poor at times as a child, there were many years when we survived on government cheese and bologna and hand-me-downs from friends and family - but we never went to bed hungry. So I can sympathize, but not fully empathize.
Just to make it clear - so I don't sound as heartless as I feel like I sound here - I would not choose an ice rink if the choice were between an ice rink and food for the poor, or an ice rink and housing for people who need it. I chose an ice rink based on my presumption that it was a choice of an ice rink or nothing, or an ice rink or more profits for some cronies. We as citizens - even those who pay taxes in the country - don't get to make these sorts of choices; we have little say as to where the money goes. I would much rather see an extra $1.5 million go towards helping the poor, but as I see that as 1) a separate, independent issue with funds coming from a different source, and 2) something that, unfortunately, probably isn't going to happen for various political and selfish reasons - well then, given these assumptions, why not let some kids have some fun?
To understand the concept of "zero-sum" (which is not a game per se - it's a mentality, but it comes from game theory, hence the phrase "zero-sum game"), think of you and I sitting down to eat a pie, or - what the heck - drink a bottle of FdC. Every sip I take of the FdC is one less sip that you get. In this mentality, "a participant's gain or loss is exactly balanced by the losses or gains of the other participant(s)." But what if there's another case of FdC behind the counter waiting? Then my taking an extra shot doesn't diminish the amount of FdC available for you.
When you're dealing with politics and economics at the national level, people try to argue that it's zero-sum - especially Republicans, when arguing that giving equal rights to homosexuals will take away rights of heterosexuals, or when arguing that we can't afford expenses that would go to help poor people, such as health care or poverty reduction. But there's always ways to increase the revenue or "liberties" stream without taking away rights or funds from other sources, such as (economically) raising taxes, taking out loans or foreign aid, or (my personal preference) cutting out profits for cronies. Again, the same Republicans who argue for a zero-sum situation when it comes to healthcare (we can't afford it without slashing other funds for poor people) turn around and change their tune when it comes to their preferred expenses, e.g. foreign wars - suddenly we can afford spending $100+ billion a year without paying for it by raising taxes on the rich or cutting subsidies to oil or defense companies.
(...and hey, what's with all this bashing of some holiday cheer? I thought it was just us effete liberals who were behind the War on Christmas? /snark)
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Life is what happens while we're busy making other plans
Holiday cheer?
What holidays? LOL
Thanks for explaining the zero-sum theory :) I'm not sure it is a truly practical or logical theory but that's probably just my view of it.
What about the real "Child Support'
That some of these zipper happy, red blooded, another notch in the belt, virgin wrecking latinos should be paying? (yes it takes two to tango but leave that one alone for a while).
How many Deputados, Ministers (or anyone in this Government for that matter) have made them and ain't paying for them? And the rest of the male population?
It's joke for this Government to use Christmas as a front to even begin to suggest they are pro-children. 3 roofs have fallen in on schools this year due to lack of maintenance. It was only pure luck nobody died.
Its a Titanic problem......by that I mean "Woman and Children first"
Touche-Touche
Nicareal is right on the money on this one Nicole-and between you and me aI bet he has a big pile of it_sssssssssssh! Just joking -but Jon is correct-Nica is a desperately poor country and its borderline survival for money. I'd vote the moeny got spent where it was more needed
options
The point here is that the government have a lot of necessity and the people more,is option A till Z, but instead they figure out to invent a option to help to fulfill his second term option.
About US expenses on war, the reality is that war industry is one of the main components of the US wealthy system, and i don't saying that is right, but if you cut it out , the damage will be the same..that is a reality.
►If you can demonstrate that the $1.5 million used here is being diverted from funds that would otherwise go to food or housing, I would reconsider. But I highly doubt it.
I don't really know how familiar are you with the Nicaraguan system, i read you a lot writing and defending the goverment..but has you tried or you know about the hard or impossible task to get information from the government ?
I know this
I know this full well - that was my point.
You've completely misunderstood me if you believe I'm defending this government. I have many problems with Daniel Ortega, especially in his current incarnation, though I do believe they started out with some good ideas. I dislike the current government, I just don't have the same visceral hatred of it that you do. I'm the kind of person who believes nearly everyone has at least some good in there somewhere, and I don't let my hatred blind me to the (few) good things I do see happening, on occasion.
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Life is what happens while we're busy making other plans
See nicanor... there you go again being negative!
Have you no heart for the children? Have you no compassion for the unwashed masses? Where are you while the children are being entertained? Why are you not handing out some of these pretty banderas to the little ones?
Now you are really disappointing me with your heartlessness and your practical outlook.....
I hope you take a more lighthearted view of the situation soon..... :)
not at all
if been realistic is been negative...i accepted.
Hey man
lighten up! I was being sarcastic... I'm on your side on this issue. (I know this is hard to believe..LOL)
i know it
you saw my first comment to your nice piece of humor..i was only following the wave
You just came up with another great idea... "wave"
Let's go for the summer Olympics as well. That way we can't lose!
I think it is a wonderful idea!
Regardless of the cost, and the fact that the National Police has no money to fuel their vehicles, this is not a luxury. This my friends is a necessity!
After all it is for the children of the poor and impoverished! Why would a child that goes hungry most every day of the year pass up the opportunity to slip and fall on an ice rink? After all, while the newly made hospital patient is waiting for the ambulance, he/she will be entertained by jugglers and clowns!
What child, given the choice, would not chose the circus over a years supply of food? What child in its right mind would pass up a full tummy for a bag of cotton candy?
I would guess this brilliant idea sprang from the cerebrum of our very own First Lady Rosario Murillo. She ought to be congratulated for her pioneering spirit and her compassion for the poor children of Nicaragua. I honestly feel she has outdone herself on this occasion and that every campesino and every inhabitant of Managua's poorest barrios will come together to praise her and the government in a demonstration to rival the one last week in Managua.
I would like to offer this suggestion: Let's store the ice rink for when Nicaragua is awarded the Winter Olympic Games in a few short years. When that happens all the Nay Sayers will be standing there with egg on their faces and will have to admit that this was an act of incredible foresight.
i'm glad to se Nicareal
that you are finely beginning to appreciate the towering intellect that of Nicaragua's First Lady???? I don't know if that is the right word to use in Murillo's case-Lady just doesn't seem to fit somehow
well
Please don't take it like a attack to a woman, this is a joke to the person that represent the half of the government party.
Must Nicaraguans say she is the First witch ,not because she liked practice esotericism or like it wearing stuff like Christmas tree..but they feel fear and cold breeze...and is true,,what Daniel say about the resolution of the CSE is because she converted the law in stone.
I am grateful for everything my government does for me
I am just more grateful for some things than for others. All in all I try to stick to my extremist views and try to tow the party line. Please be patient with Rosario. After all she is only in her first term. She will only begin to truly shine after the 2nd or 3rd time around.
I'm astonished
Jon Stewart , would he have done better?
thats good jajajajajajaj