Honduras, c2009...United States, c1974?...
...It is 1974, and the U.S. Supreme Court has ordered President Richard Nixon to turn over tapes allegedly pertaining to the obstruction of justice, per the then Watergate investigation. The Judicial Branch of the U.S. Government has ordered the Executive Branch that it hasn't ultimate standing, that Executive “Privilege” isn't even that, and assumes Nixon will abide by their decision and hold the Constitution and legal system -and some would say the "Country"- in higher regard than his Presidential power and personal/political goals & ambitions (for all his faults, this is exactly what he did).
But, imagine he didn't do this; imagine Nixon told the Court he didn't recognize their authority and/or that they should find something better to do with their time (his Quaker roots likely would have prevented him from telling the where to go, biblically anyway). What would the Court have done? They could repeat the order, send it a second time with an exclamation point at the end, they could offer up a "pretty please", or they could call and beg him to abide and a host of other things that would not have been any more persuasive than their original demand. Ultimately, to really settle the matter, they would need to decide what to do, how to enforce such a ruling on the Executive Branch. They would do so without any instructions per the U.S. Constitution (no article or footnote would have told Chief justice Warren Burger what he should have done). If Nixon would not do so willingly, then the Court would, ultimately, need to "force" him to do so. This means an order to people who officially exert force for a living, namely military or police. Since the U.S. is essentially barred from using the military, they would need to settle for the police, who could only arrest him and may or may not find the tapes. How would the matter be solved, really? What would become of Nixon if he did not care anything of the decisions of the U.S. Supreme Court? Would the eventual solution look politically mature, philosophically thoughtful, or all that envious when explained to the rest of the world in 45-second sound bites on television, with close up video coverage of anyone who disagreed with the implementation?
Alternative scenario: Imagine President Nixon refuses to resign, irrespective of the events that unfold. Clearly, he would have been impeached, then convicted. But, so what. What if he simply did not care? So what if he refused to leave the White House or accept the decision and adhere to the subsequent conviction. What if Nixon stayed there in the White House, fired anyone who didn't support him, then surrounded himself with true believers who found him to be the sole future of the country? What would the U.S. Supreme Court do? The practical answer doesn't necessarily lie in the Constitution, that is for sure. Gerald Ford would end up President, but suppose Nixon still refuses to leave the White House. What does the Court and/or Ford do, exactly? Not an enviable position. Does the highest Court of the Land send a special envoy, send a former President to talk some sense into him, request help from an Ambassador from a country fond of democracy and/or the alleged rule of law, send in a shrink or two, play some Nancy Sinatra songs really really loud on the front lawn, send in the police chief or later the FBI? If Nixon will not leave then, eventually, someone needs to make him leave, and the question is who will that someone be and what will they do with him once they get him outside the property line of the Presidential property. It isn't very likely that Ford, Burger, Thomas Moorer, and others would have planned an invasion of the White House and put Nixon on a plane to a friendly country (wherever that would have been for him, maybe Paraguay). But, the scenario only seems silly as it is so hard to imagine a U.S. President doing such a thing - but being hard to imagine isn't an answer as to what would be done. If that seems a stretch, go all the way and imagine Nixon was eventually off somewhere freely or otherwise, when some nice, meddling entities decided he should be not just back in the U.S., but reinstated and back in the White House (also imagine the only reason for this anyone can find is that there is a nice, mostly incoherent and unquestionable quasi-religious argument pointing out that the worst thing in the world is that a democratically elected official wouldn't serve out a Presidential term). If the U.S. is to give Honduras free advice per the current stalemate, then they should be able to imagine all this, then explain it.
The Nixon thought experiment exists nonetheless; most people will not want to offer up a serious answer - especially those U.S. citizens fond of insisting on a return to the rule of Zelaya. You look almost silly regardless of how you intend to remove and eliminate Nixon from public view/discourse. To judge Honduras circa 2009, one really does need to imagine Nixon not giving up the tapes and/or not resigning, and how it would play out in any fashion one would be proud of, irrespective of one‘s view of Nixon. The idea that anyone elected democratically is somehow above the law for the next 1460 days seems to be the only explanation that makes sense per the outside analysis of the recent alleged coup in Honduras. The Country and Constitution are made to appear as though they are the product of some political amateur hour, a throwback to barbarism, or a front for military rule that never really went away. In reality, Constitutional law in almost any country gets real ugly real fast when one branch fails to put anything above itself. If you pit the senior player of one branch against another in almost any democracy, especially a fledgling one in a developing country, it is no great surprise that it starts to look less than impressive when viewed idealistically from afar. "Democratic" countries insistent on restoring Zelaya to power should offer up an official legal argument (give their Attorney General or equivalent something to do, and Harvard University Press can collect them and offer them in book form, padding everyone's resume and ego) for how they would handle an analogous problem in their own country. What will follow is not insight into upholding or maintaining the lofty principles of democratic rule but, in all likelihood, fodder for a decade of good skits on “Saturday Night Live”.
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and then there was the. . . .
and then there was the. . . . Business Plot against Roosevelt in 1934
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
history
roosevelt took a depression and made it worse. looks like history is repeating itself....
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson-
Nixon in Honduras?
Well the one big difference between the two episodes I think is that Mr Nixon was tried and found guilty by the Supreme Court of the Press and the Public Opinion. For Nixon to resign tells me he felt that he couldn't beat the case brought up against him and there was that pesky thing they called evidence. So if the Honduran congress felt and knew and had evidence of Mr Zelaya's crimes they should have ..... wait amigos we are talking about a latin american body of government and the cardinal rule is : Whomever rules the Military is the winner. Yes the USA may not be perfect but at least they put on a great show.
Court did that
But ... the Honduran Supreme Court did do that. And, the decision and subsequent Congressional vote was the basis of the (admittedly odd and unnecessary) Military Order that resulted in the removal of Zelaya and the very temporary installment of military rule while the Congress handled the required succession vote, which ultimately ratified the Constitutional required successor (and from the same political party as Zelaya) and current President and reconfirmed the forthcoming election schedule.
Constitutionally Cynical
Do you know how many times the Constitution in any latin american country gets rewritten,ammended,annulled or whatever you want to call it?. Here is the deal : guys like Chavez,Ortega and Zelaya they claim they are for the poor and I know that a call to end hunger and misery can be a very strong motivator for the many poor. Now whether they do as they claim that is another story. To understand where the people that give their support to this guys come from you must first walk on their shoes but on a frame of mind that there is nothing more and there is no nice house and car and job and security waiting for you after the experience is done; for the poor the life of hopelesness is not a one day or one month or a year of experience is a life; along come whomever full of promises but surely enough with a personal or a third party agenda and he will use your pain and desperation until he has no more use for you. Our people talk of democracy on both sides ,one claim to be the protector of it and the other claim to be the usurped and violated democracy itself. Lofty ideals and great sounding rhetoric spoon fed by those that don't toil out on the fields and construction and the maquilas for a measly salary. These guys my friend are: the members of Congress and the President elected or not elected by the people, the Judges at all levels,the Generals and their subordinates they only uphold the law when is to their convenience. If for only a moment everybody would step back and ... I'm sorry can't help myself. From the comfort and safety of our places whitout any fear to express our opinions it is easy to take sides and voice our opinions but out in the real world especially in such places as Latin America, Africa, the Middle East and Asia to do so first you must take stock and know that you are no longer playing just for fun nope, now you are playing for keeps. The greed of all Humanity was,is, and will always be our downfall.
A con
So ... your original complaint was that the Honduran Supreme Court didn't do its job, legally. But, when pointed out that they did, now your complaint is that Constitutions are worth anything anyway because they are rewritten and amended so often and not enforced consistently. If that is all so, then there must not have been any point to the original complaint. The "deal" simply isn't as you posit though. Those toiling in fields, construction, maquilas, etc., are most of the very people out there protesting against Zelaya. Most of the people in the country are poor. Most roads are closed or restricted. There isn't mass transit as usual. When you see massive mostly spontaneous turnouts in a place like Choluteca yesterday, those are almost all regional-local people. Since most people there are very poor, a huge percentage of any mass demonstration like that is made up mostly of very poor people. There isn't any other explanation, and there isn't any way to "fake it". While it is true Zelaya claimed to represent the poor, and many of his supporters are poor, just as many if not more poor people support the new President, all in addition to the not-to-poor and rich who also do. The idea that the rich are for the new government and the poor are for Zelaya is a myth, a con, and one that hasn't anything to do with priveledges or the Middle East.
Give that gentleman a cigar
You got it!!! A CON!!! On the other hand you seem to think that I'm complaining about one thing and when presented with other facts I change my position as they say here "flip-flop".I wasn't complaining only pointing out a proven fact of life in any country that at one time or another has gone through what Honduras is living at this very moment. If you read again what I wrote earlier you'll see that what I'm trying to say is very simple : Anybody in a position of power will always use the poor no matter what side. As for the legitimacy of those demonstrations I will cite not Honduras but Nicaragua . Back in the early 70's , Somoza used to mobilize people from all over the place to fill his events as well as the Sandinistas and any politics operative that is of any worth will do now as before and in the future. Talking to Hondurans here of many walks of life after their heads cool off some begin to reason and think things through and realize that they are alone because in the end things will return to the same as it was a the beginning. As for the rich being for the new government being a con,a myth well the Chamber of Commerce came out and publicly pledge their support for the new government. And in my humble opinion being able to stand up to any government because one feels that such government isn't looking out for one's interest shouldn't be considered a priviledge but a given birth right. And the show must go on.
heck
clinton lied in his cover up. and he got away with it!
what i want to know is this obama's scandal? what did he know and when did he know it? "top Republican senator has ordered an investigation into the Environmental Protection Agency's alleged suppression of a report that questioned the science behind global warming. The 98-page report, co-authored by EPA analyst Alan Carlin, pushed back on the prospect of regulating gases like carbon dioxide as a way to reduce global warming. Carlin's report argued that the information the EPA was using was out of date, and that even as atmospheric carbon dioxide levels have increased, global temperatures have declined." http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/29/gop-senator-calls-inquiry-sup...
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson-
I take it seriously
Actually, I take all your posts seriously. While we may disagree on many things, I see rational arguments which I like. And, in many cases, I don't even think we disagree—we are just presenting different views. When I post something from another, in many cases it is to present a view that I don't see appearing here—not necessarily a view I agree with.
Now, I am no expert on what is and isn't legal in Honduras and, hopefully, have made that clear. What I have posted has mostly been opinion of others—in/from Honduras and others in Central America.
The exception was my discussion post where I was looking for an explanation of what Zelaya did that was illegal. My understanding is that when told that "the Sunday vote" was illegal he said it was only advisory.
While I don't think discussion in NL can "fix" Honduras, understanding if and if so, what, Zelaya did that violated the constitution of Honduras seems important to understand.
dictatorship in the making
Forget about the referendum....If i understand correctly, ZELAYA replaced the chief of the FUERZA's Armada de Honduras and accepted the "resignation" from El Ministro de Defensa......Of course this was in the media, but on the same day as soon as word got out of MJ's death, the media coverage ended on Honduras. Two or three days later, nothing was mentioned of the fact.....Only thing mentioned was a referendum that Zelaya was in favor of....and thats why the so called "coup" took place. OK....yeah right. Who believes the "coup" was due to the referendum....also believes in the tooth fairy...
Your right about Nixon.
America has been lucky to have elections every 4 years like clockwork, even during the Civil War. The separation of powers, States rights¨, and an armed populate helps keep the politicians in line. Specifically, if Nixon didn´´t role over, the Court or Congress would have sent in the police to arrest him. If the police didn´t have enough muscle, they would have sent the army to help.
Fortuneately, the US didn´t have to go thru all this.
¨Pata de Perro¨
And Bush?
It seems pretty clear that Bush violated all so many laws, statutes, ... When confronted (by Congress, for example) he didn't roll over. So far, he got away with it.
Seems like 1974 US was different than what is now the case. Too bad. And that ignores two recent "like clockwork" elections that, well, seem to have been a bit strange.
For anyone missing my point, it is that a lot of usanos point to the U.S. as a good example but tend to ignore that just possibly things in the U.S. are a bit different today than, say, during the Civil War. It is the responsibility of usanos to question this or, in other words, make sure the government serves the people, not itself.
one reason
that americans can tolerate bad presidents (In my lifetime I count 3-Nixon, Bush2, and Obama) is that they know that they will be gone in 4 or 8 years because of our longstanding tradition of have elections on time and basically fair. Yes there are questionable actions, such as Kennedy in Ill and Bush2 in Fla., but by and large elections are under some degree of local control with federal oversite and usually come into question only when the vote is extremely close.
Honduras has a poor history of democracy, hurt a few decades back by US cold war policies, but they have been making progress and this fear of an Alba takeover may catapult them into the unlikely position of the champeon of democracy and national independence in the hemisphere.
¨Pata de Perro¨
can i add
a bad election in wisconsin, al franken where they kept finding votes...
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson-
sham...
they kept finding votes in wisconsin til the "right" guy won. in florida, some female democrat operative yelled on camera, "i'll go to jail if i have to." yep, election security is a sham all over the world...some say even in nica mayoral elections...
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson-
Interesting conversation...
Zelaya and Micheletti belonged to the same party and were very close allies...oh well. check out this secretly recorded conversation between the two http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER6W9HjXI0s Micheletti is clearly his mentor and smarter than Zelaya…