Situation in Hondurus/Zelaya
This discussion about what is happening with regard to the government/President Zelaya has already been started in http://www.nicaliving.com/node/15127 and other places. But, clearly, this discussion deserves its own forum topic. So, here it is.
Some see this as "a warning to Ortega", others as why (or why not) you need to be friends with Venezuela's President Chavez and certainly others see it as the usual "if he was just nice to the U.S. government" (for most any value of "he". The reality is that this is a coup. Some allegations have been made of what Zelaya "might do" but it is not clear that he did, as yet, violate the constitution of Honduras.
So, let the discussion begin. Note that 15127 is the right place for the "Left turn" discussion. This is about what is happening with regard to the coup.

NCR Article
An article in the National Catholic Reporter offers some interesting information. You can find out a bit about Gen. Romeo Orlando Vásquez Velásquez and about handling of the media from it.
SOA
Interview with Father Roy Bourgeois, SOA Watch founder:
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/1/generals_who_led_honduras_military_...
What is the School of the Americas? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfqWL6NucaY
Last night on the tube
Uncle Hugo was addressing one of his military academies. What good are they going to do for small, poor countries with pourous borders like Honduras?
¨Pata de Perro¨
I bet
John Negroponte was asking himself that question when he was the "ambassador" in Honduras...
Is Chavez's committing, or hiding any human rights abuses through his policies? Or is he simply a loud mouth who annoys you to no end?
The constitution
Many newspapers in Europe got this wrong: Zelaya would not have been able to change the constitution before the next president would have to be elected, even if he had won the vote last Sunday.
I translated a press release from Norwegian to English which some may find interesting:
http://johanneswilm.org/index.php/item/189
I won't even start with the North American ones, as they hold a very relativistic view of reality altogether and apparently invent stuff when what happens on the ground isn't in line with what they would like things to be like.
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
Article 205, No.22?
The entire thesis rests mostly on the final claim: "It is evident that the opposition had no legal case against President Zelaya. All they had was speculation about perfectly legal scenarios which they strongly disliked. Otherwise, they could have followed a legal procedure sheltered in article 205 nr. 22 of the 1982 Constitution, which states that public officials that are suspected to violate the law are subject to impeachment by the National Congress. As a result they helplessly unleashed a violent and barbaric preemptive strike, which has threatened civility, democracy and stability in the region.". But, Article 205, Number 22 reads as follows: "22. Interpelar a los Secretarios de estado y a otros funcionarios del gobierno central, organismos descentralizados, empresas estatales y cualquiera otra entidad en que tenga interés el Estado, sobre asuntos relativos a la administración pública". Even if it read otherwise in Honduras, it would likely be applicable only to those appointed by the President, not the President himself. Were it as simple as the they could have just impeached him, then they would have just impeached him, given that virtually no one in Congress supports him.
"Deregulating The Thruth"
The author of the Norwegian article Johannes is referring at, is Alberto Valiente Thoresen. He was born in San Salvador, El Salvador. He currently resides in Norway where he serves on the board of the Norwegian Solidarity Committee with Latin America. He posted today an even more detailed report addressing the same pro Zelaya view at rebelreports.com. It's an interesting read and showing the reader where Michelatti possibly might have "deregulated the truth" a bit in his statements too. Why President Zelaya's Actions in Honduras Were Legal and Constitutional!
What I translated was
What I translated was originally a press release and so it represented the collective views of the Norwegian Solidarity Committee with Latin America.
But I now asked them to specify who specifically wrote it up and they told me it was Alberto Valiente Thoresen, Cecilie Hirsch and Susanne Normann.
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
OK.OK. . . .
But can we have your opinion on the fact that Tuesday last week the Honduran Congress, led by members of Zelaya's own liberal party, passed a new law preventing the holding of referendums or plebiscites 180 days before or after general elections and the fact that Zelaya's actions to organize the poll happened after that law was passed?
Article in Proceso
DECRETO No.185-2007
And do you think LAG and Alberto left this out accidentally in their writings?
Well, that was not part of
Well, that was not part of what they were trying to point out. However, if such opinion polls are legal to the president by constitution and all, does congress then have the right to deny him that?
And why exactly does the entire media need to report the whole re-election thing wrongly?
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
A bit biased...
I think Decreto 185-2007 is legal. It's not infringing on the constitution, at least that is what the Honduran Congress and Supreme Court concluded.
LAG's intention by publishing this press release was to "provide a thorough explanation of what happened in Honduras". By not refuting the main argument of the Honduran Liberals - offending Decreto No.185-2007 by Zelaya - and by not even mentioning it, their statement looks a bit biased, at least to me.
I agree it is difficult to oversee all arguments in this matter, since both sides are spinning the truth. But I still think there are more valid legal arguments in favor of Micheletti then for Zelaya. Because the Zelaya side is spinning far better, they seem to be winning at this moment.
I now better understand your remark in your comment above "Well, that was not part of what they were trying to point out".
Micheletti . . . Check Mate?
Zelaya made an excellent statement at the UN in New York yesterday saying: "...Distinguished ambassadors, there is no law in my country allowing the ousting of a president. There was no trial to condemn a president. This was one of the reforms that we were envisaging; the possibility to impeach, if a president is found to fail. But there is people who are the judge. The congress does not appoint a president, the congress may appoint a member. This is the right of the people. Nowhere does the congress appoint the president, the president is appointed by the people....". He was applauded and the UN General Assembly deplored the coup officially in resolution GA10842
Now I don't think Micheletti did a great job for his country until now. Why?
Honduras is getting more and more isolated, which can be very bad for its trade and economy. International grants may go on hold. I hope he has got a good plan to handle Zelaya's return on Thursday. Let's hope for the best.
Options
It might not be wise to mess with an election date or events surrounding it. This is always viewed as suspicious in Honduras and is one reason the Supreme Court instituted the 180 days before/after clause in their earlier decision so that no newly appointed nor outgoing person has any incentive to adjust calendar or other items close to a vote or the excitement right after one. It would be rare for Ambassadors everywhere to all be explaining the same thing, as it would be unnecessary if done once from their President - though many of these people are still Zelaya appointees. The current "President" would not likely leave the country for any reason. Constitutionally, his only designated successor now is the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.
While the surprise military airplane exit was not viewed as an ideal or noble solution to be sure, to the average Honduran GA10842 must look like some sick joke (the comments per teachers, 5% margin, oceanic trade, media rights, alleviating plight, & increased economic output are all bizarrely and demonstrably false). Things like 10842 just increase the likelihood that the national resolution will be unattractive to say the least, as the new government would view such a document as the very sort of thing that does not even dignify a response (they would be wrong to in that view, but it might well be there view). Anti-Chavez/Zelaya sentiment is the one thing cementing the country; every time the world press announces outside political deadlines and posits economic requirements or punishments, all it does is unite more people. Choluteca is currently in the middle of the largest public gathering in the history of the city, and it is anti-Zelaya.
see foto of this demo
on la gringas blogicito. A lot of Hondurans are turning out in support of their government. It´s absolutely amazazing that the UN and OAS ignor countries that murder thousands, and want to dump on poor Honduras for protecting itself from the Chavistas.
¨Pata de Perro¨
a lousy PR job
OK. I'm just saying he's doing a lousy PR job. If the election date can not be any sooner then November, then he should have explained this. If necessary over and over again. If some Honduran ambassadors can't be convinced to spread the word, then he should fly in some spokesmen who can. If he can't leave the country to attend the OAS or UN meetings, then he should have demanded for a video link to Managua and New York. If he was refused to speak there then he should have complained about this loud and clear in a press conference. Now Micheletti and Honduras is convicted at OAS and UN without being heard. His only reaction was to fire the UN and OAS ambassador. The only thing he's good in is ranting at Obama and Chavez and rejecting any outside interference. That's not how you are going to win this war...
He is a military dictator
He is a military dictator and should be treated as such. he should be put in jail for his actions. I am against the death penalty and so I would speak in favor of sparing his life.
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
More info from inside Honduras
From one day to the next, you never know what is going to happen. It has now happened in Honduras. For over three years, everything has been changing in Honduras as the President has been aligning with Chavez from Venezuela. He has made many decisions that 70 percent of the population of Honduras have been against but no one in the international community has said or done anything. By law, a Honduran president can only serve for four years and their is no re-election. Whether people like that this or not, it is in the constitution and it has always been respected.
Zelaya flew from Costa Rica to Nicaragua to meet with the leftist Presidents of Venezuela, Nicaragua, and Bolivia. To everyone surprise, the OEA and President Obama took sides with the leftist President Zelaya ordering his return to power in Honduras. There is now rioting in the streets and people have been killed. There are reports of people being flown in from Venezuela and buses full of people coming from Nicaragua to riot against the new Government in Honduras. To make things worst, Zelaya is planning on returning to Honduras on Thursday with representatives of the United Nations with Obamas support to "TAKE BACK HIS PRESIDENCY".
I am not surprised that Obama sided with the leftist ex-president and Chavez, he's the one who kissed Hugo's butt and listened to a hour long rant against the US by Ortega. Obama is the first President installed by the Extreme left. He is proving that he has no spine.
Protests
The government has the option of rejecting any and all air passengers on any passport, and could ban Venezuelans if they so choose (and likely already have for certain people or irregular flights). They can also close the border with Nicaragua or reject land crossings individually or collectively (they did the former on Sunday). On Sunday morning there was far more risk at the Nicaraguan border than in Central Park or the Presidential House. On the Nicaraguan side there were easily 50+ times the number of people there as any other random Sunday morning. Honduran planes make regular routes there; the Air Force flies to the border and back several times a day via jet patrol. The roads from Danli and San Marcos are highly monitored and would be closed instantly were there any greater concern.
As of right now the Tegus Central Park and all neighboring streets are simply packed with Anti-Zelaya people (technically, an anti-Chavez march); it is like Semana Santa, Independence Day, and an illusive important soccer victory all rolled into one. The pro-Zelaya protests seen in snapshots on world news yesterday, with the smoke & violence, was the work of what appeared to be no more than 265 people, as captured in police imagery. Prior to the "coup" Zelaya indicated he would have more than 30,000 people at a demonstration, but an aerial photo indicated there were about 1700 "heads" down there. This is not to say Zelaya doesn't have support because at least in the past he has certainly had his segment of the population but they are not out in force - not yet anyway. It is a numbers game right now and what those numbers do if Zelaya comes back isn't clear.
Ramón Villeda
A bit of history:
Dr. Ramón Villeda Morales (1908–1971) served as President of Honduras from 1957 to 1963. Trained as a physician, Villeda Morales was a liberal who supported the democratization of Honduras after a long period of military rule. Following the military junta of the 1955, he was chosen by the country's constituent assembly to serve as president and oversee the transition to democracy. Villeda Morales immediately embarked on a campaign to help the poorer elements of society, introducing welfare benefits and enacting a new labor code that favored the country's large working class population. While these steps were popular with the masses, they enraged the traditional sources of power in Honduras: the military and the upper classes. When it seemed likely that he would win the 1963 election with an even stronger mandate to enact his social reforms, the military responded with a coup, just ten days before the election was scheduled to take place.
Legacy:
Villeda Morales helped modernize Honduras, and to create its public health, public education, and social security systems. He was a key supporter of the Alliance for Progress.
That reminds me...
A bit more of history...
What is missing from the brief account is that it was the Honduran military that removed former Vice President Julio Diaz from an illegal power grab of the Presidency following a suspicious election vote in which Morales did not receive a national majority. It was the Honduran military that forcibly removed Diaz, recalled Morales from exile, set up a temporary ruling Junta, named Morales Ambassador, then oversaw the very elections that brought Morales to power as President of Honduras. Many of biggest successes Morales had were ultimately dependent on the U.S., and President Kennedy in particular. For example, it was JFK who oversaw that all IMF requests were tripled then met, and that Honduras was fast-tracked in recommendation for Alliance for Progress funds (this is the money Morales used to implement his agenda); there are neighborhoods in Honduras, to this day, with statues of Kennedy recalling his assistance to Morales and the Honduran people. Part of the problem for Morales –who was arguably the best President in the history of Honduras- was that he wanted to run again when the Constitution forbid him from doing so. He established his own civil guard, handpicked a successor who was considered a mouthpiece, and was working on a revision of the Constitution that would have changed the role of the military and other institutions (he wasn’t legally authorized to do this). There was a coup. Kennedy never relinquished support for Morales, pulled all U.S. aid and his Ambassador, and supported him in later speaking ventures on behalf of Honduras (and the U.S. Air Force flew his body back to Honduras following his death 8 years later). There might be more similarities than there first seems, especially per the U.S. and the Constitution…
From friends inside Honduras.....
Mel Zelaya, the president of Honduras, decided that he would change this but not the way it should be. He was going to do this without the consent of the Honduran congress, supreme court or the political system. He planned a vote last Sunday where the people in Honduras would just vote YES or NO to this proposal. What we did not know was that if the people voted YES, this would cancel any future elections and he would stay in pretty much permanently like Chavez from Venezuela. On Friday of last week, everyone was surprised when four airplanes came in from Venezuela to Honduras with all the ballot boxes and voter cards. The supreme court of Honduras acted immediately and they advised President Zelaya that this was illegal and that there would be no vote on Sunday. President Zelaya then fired the head of the armed forces and he announced that the vote would continue. He was being advised by Chavez from Venezuela. His ultimate goal was to stay in power as a Dictator.
On Sunday morning, the date of the vote, the supreme court of Honduras ordered the army to arrest President Zelaya and his cabinet. Zelaya was arrested around 6:00 AM and he was put on a plane and sent to Costa Rica. The Honduran congress then voted in a new President for 6 months until the new elections can be held.
The procedure to oust Zelaya was totally within the scope of the Honduran Constitution.
Your post has nothing to do
Your post has nothing to do with reality. Please read a real newspaper.
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
Obviously from your website....
That you don't have a clue to what the USSR did to Eastern Europe after WWII. Tell me what socialist leader actually improved any country. Even your precious Sandanista government stole over 500 businesses for themselves, (Umberto Ortega lives as a millionaire in Costa Rica), show me one country thats better off. Oh yes, don't forget the National Socialists in the 30's in Germany. Just look around Berlin while you're there to see the remnants of opression.
I agree with Mr. Wilm
You definitely should not voice your opinion at all! If you must do so please refer to "credible sources" such as The Socialist, or maybe Das Kommunistische Tagesblatt.
Come on Mr. Wilm, give the man a break. He is entitled to voice his opinion without being ridiculed by you because you don't agree with his views. You are not exactly an expert on reality.
In any case have a wonderful time in Berlin.
Not my opinions...
But reports coming from inside of Honduras. The bleeding hearts of the left do not even recall history when the Communists raped eastern Europe after the war, or the rape of Nicaragua by the Sandanista regime of the 80's. I've been in Sandanista Prisons after the 90 elections, where so many political prisoners disappeared, so bloody that entire areas of the prison complex were obliterated to cover up the crimes.
The left typically replies in a hostile manner, there can be no civility in a discourse with opposition. Sort of like the goon squads sent out by Ortega to quash any demonstrations. Sort of like the closure and condemnation of any opposition against Chavez. We won't even get into the oppressive state of Cuba.
Funny...
Nothing as shameful as what happened in other Central American countries ever took place in Nicaragua. If I remember correctly, the mass graves, and genocide were taking place in El Salvador, and Guatemala during the 1980's, under regimes backed by the U.S.
I guess it is not genocide when death is funded by terrorists in Washington DC, who care nothing about democracy, and who are only interested in making a buck.
Even Clinton admitted to, and apologized to the Guatemalans for the wrong that was done to indigenous people.
Constitution
Aside form the unfortunate change handled by the military, it is bizarre (sad?) that Zelaya has become the poster-boy for Democracy. It is also sad that virtually no news piece even mentions the Honduran Constitution, though that goofy use of a resignation letter instead of actual Judicial decrees made matters seem anything but official and/or legal. When the Constitution is mentioned it is addressed in some derogatory fashion (a populace-blocking 1982 creation under the Reagan administration...). But, what is surprising (least I think anyone in Europe or North America would take note of it) is how seriously the Constitution takes the matter of re-election and term-length. It is hard to imagine a more intolerable stance, short of a firing squad penalty. It could easily be argued that taking term limits so seriously is an indication of the most pro-democracy stance possible, and this was a risk for a then military-controlled government and doing so makes it harder not easier for the U.S. to control Honduras. Last year Ron Howard made an important film, "Frost / Nixon". Nixon, deservedly so, is the standard canned example always used in the U.S. and beyond that no one is above the law (it's not illegal if the President does it...). Yet, move a loosely similar scenario to Honduras within their legal system and many of these same people want to argue that if someone is elected they must remain so and serve out the term regardless of what they do and the legality of it. Not sure such people can have it both ways (not a defense of what has happened, just pointing out it isn't a consistent set of beliefs and having a double standard isn't usually something to brag about). It isn't obvious that being fanatical about democracy -and nothing else in the world- is politically a good thing or the best route.
he should have been arrested
He{s a poster boy because the leftist press controls the news down here--and because the Chavista in the white House wants it that way.
The sad part is that on the rebound from the disatrous Bush2 administration, the American people voted for worse.
¨Pata de Perro¨
"Real Issue" and "Solution"
I think, the real cause and issue might here the "Honduran Impeachment Process" itself. As MJT stated earlier the Honduran constitution lacks any descent impeachment process. I didn't check this, but assume MJT did his research well (thank you MJT). Therefore from Honduran point of view all actions to oust Zelaya were 100% legal. Because the Honduran constitution was democratically instated and voted for, Hondurans do consider the removal of Zelaya to be democratic as well.
US and most other countries might find that the removal was "legally" done, but they do not look at this as very "democratic". A modern democracy should have an impeachment process defined in its constitution. To my knowledge Zelaya was not given any trial, not even an unfair one, but was just put on a plane to CR.
All countries and organizations involved, try to use this issue here to their own advantage, making the issue broader and broader. Make it look different or worse. Most of the media - as usual - are not helping to solve this. By not doing their own research and by consuming all carefully composed official statements regardlessly, they are making things worse.
Now the solution of this problem might be just in simple understanding "the real issue" here, with respect to the Hondurans. If this is worked out at the OAS meeting, this can all be over very quickly.
The "UN card". . . Smart Move!
Certainly not his own idea, but it's smart from Zelaya to play the "UN card". He said on Monday that he would address the United Nations in New York to protest the coup that ousted him from power. If you look carefully at all official US statements that were made by Obama, Clinton and the US ambassador to Honduras Hugo Llorens, then you'll notice they are all in line with each other. In political statements it is often more important to look at things that were not said, then things that were. The word "coup" was never used, reinstatement of Zelaya was not called for, the word "condemned" was used very carefully by Obama and Clinton.
Only the statement of UN Ambassador Rosemary DiCarlo 6/29 seems out of line here. She stated: "We further joined our OAS colleagues in demanding the safe and unconditional return of President Zelaya to Honduras so he can resume his constitutional functions." He will almost certain refer to the DiCarlo statement in his appeal to the UN. I am curious how Obama/Clinton will tackle this. The US really don't want Zelaya in Honduras, but wants to stay friends with Hugo.
hats off to the heroes
of the Honduran Congress and Supreme court for taking the first step to role back the Chavista dictators and would-be dictators. Somebody had to do it and it sure won´t be the closet-leftist in the White House.
And what shame for the US! Shades of all of those years of supporting Pol Pot in Cambodia, just to spite the Vietnamese.
And those of you who are not here cannot possibly understand the total control of the leftists over the news media here, especially the TV news.
¨Pata de Perro¨
MEL SAID
AS PER NEWS MEL SAID HE IS GOING BACK TO HONDURAS ON THRUSDAY HE WILL FLY BACK AS PRESIDENT From Times Online June 30, 2009
Exiled leader Manuel Zelaya vows to return to Honduras (AP Photo/Miguel Alvarez) Ousted Honduras President Manuel Zelaya, centre, alongside Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez, right, and Cuba's President Raul Castro in Managua on Monday
Times Online The exiled Honduran President Manuel Zelaya has said he will return to his country later this week after addressing the United Nations in New York to protest the coup that ousted him from power.
"I go to Tegucigalpa on Thursday," Mr Zelaya said in a speech before regional leaders in Mangua.
"I'm the elected president, I will fulfil my four-year term," he vowed
The Smartest Option?
If Zelaya really does return on Thursday, I think he will probably try to land at the Soto Cano Air Base, a joint Honduras and U.S. military base near Comayagua to have at least some U.S. protection. The Honduran government will have several options to deal with this. What would be the smartest?
what business does the rest of the world have getting involved??
The AP frames this perfectly from the very first paragraph as a strictly domestic and constitutional matter that Honduras appears to have handled completely legally, according to *THEIR* laws. The rest of the world has no business getting involved.
---------------
TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras – A military coup has divided Honduras between two leaders — one recognized by world bodies and another backed by the country's congress, courts and military.
[...]
There is a deep rift between the outside world — which is clamoring for the return of democratically elected, but largely unpopular and soon-to-leave-office President Manuel Zelaya — and congressionally designated successor Roberto Micheletti.
Micheletti rejected any outside interference and declared a two-night curfew, while Chavez vowed that "we will overthrow (Micheletti)."
The Honduran constitution limits presidents to a single 4-year term, and Zelaya's opponents feared he would use the referendum results to try to run again, just as Chavez reformed his country's constitution to be able to seek re-election repeatedly.
Micheletti said the army acted on orders from the courts, and the ouster was carried out "to defend respect for the law and the principles of democracy." But he threatened to jail Zelaya and put him on trial if he returned. Micheletti also hit back at Chavez, saying "nobody, not Barack Obama and much less Hugo Chavez, has any right to threaten this country."
ex-president Zelaya
should have been jailed, tried and convicted, but apparently Congress feared a meltdown of the political system or Chavista death squads, quite possibly of Nicaraguan origen.
Interesting watching the tube last night. Chavez is obviuosly the 800 pound gorrilla who is orchestrating the others. Ortega, who appears sick or depressed in public lately, is doing his share but obviously as a junior partner to the great maestro.
for more info, check out "La Gringa's Blogicito" website
¨Pata de Perro¨
Amen Pate Perro
I should buy you a beer or 2 for those fine and true words!!
US are mistaken!
My guess is that the US, European Union and all other countries condemning this coup, don't understand what's going on and are making a big mistake. It was also a big mistake not to detain Mel in Honduras. By condemning this coup, they are all playing into Hugo’s hands. The military coup was done because Mel was breaking the law by organizing this referendum on this "ALBA amendment" of the constitution. He deliberately chose to ignore congress, senate and supreme court. He later stated the referendum would be a "non-binding" one, but by dismissing general Vasquez, he made his intentions very clear. I think the military was possibly very well informed of other ALBA plans we don't know yet.
What I do hope is NOT true:
What I do hope:
Least secret coup ever?
It was the sort of "coup" (if that is what it was, but it isn't 100% obvious it is given the highest-level terminations in civilian police, military, congress, etc., combined with the failure to adhere to the Supreme Court decision that dealt with re-election and legitimate governance, and apparently eliminated his Presidential authority and might even have ended his citizenship) that one could have all-but put on the calendar or into the daily planners. Last week there was no school, government offices were closed, the downtown was locked down, cell companies acknowledges an expected impending lack of service, and even supermarkets took out print & radio ads notifying people to buy now and stock up for 10 days- then they closed, too.
The peculiar uses of the military in the weeks leading up to the event were likely exploratory in nature, designed to both annoy and/or panic Zelaya and also used to determine if he had security forces not on the official payroll, where they were and what they would start to do if provoked. It doesn't help that 25x as many people as normal have been entering the country in the last 90 days on Cuban and Venezuelan passports, etc. This doesn't prove or imply anything illegal or underground, but it also isn't exactly a vote of confidence in Honduran sovereignty - the military has ready access to this data, which must have looked suspicious to say the least.
The sad part, beyond the horrible precedent it sets, is that it was all unnecessary, and the product of Zelaya's bad judgment and input from his advisors - many of whom do not hold Honduran passports. Even a college sophomore poli sci major could have devised a better plan long-range than the one Zelaya ended up with. Were it not for the presumed need to suddenly change the Constitution, none of this would have happened (without it he couldn't be re-elected, so all people needed to do is wait him out, etc.). His blunders are so big it is genuinely difficult to assess whether or not this was planned to provoke a political or military overreaction or some other reaction that would have led to something other than a plane ride to Costa Rica, or if they really thought this would work.
Zelaya, while far from a genius, would have been better doing everything himself. He could have accomplished most of what little he did without Chavez, and the last thing he needed was Chavez-based press commentary on democracy, military aid, force, etc. The biggest recent blow to Zelaya was actually the Honduran reaction to Chavez, especially this month. While Zelaya does have populace support in Honduras (just not that of any politically connected people), even many of these people seemed surprised and insulted by the comments made by Chavez, and those "heard" in Honduras on his behalf. On radio and tv it was not hard for reporters to locate Hondurans who admitted they were liberals, that they may or may not support all of Zelaya's policies and believe in democracy, but -and this was the interesting part- that if anyone from Venezuela or Nicaragua entered Honduras intend to insert or prop up any Honduran politician, that they would fight or aid their military in doing so, to repel them. Quite remarkable, really. So, in effect, by going this far Zelaya actually ended up taking people mildly sympathetic to much of what he was doing and pissed the off in such a way that they claimed they were willing to take up arms and fight any non-Hondurans who might be coming to support the "party" to which they belong, politically.
It is hard to imagine how Zelaya's advisors could have so badly misjudged the reaction of the average Honduran to the idea of Chavez sending people to do, well, almost anything. While a good percentage of Hondurans support many ideas adhered to by Zelaya, they rarely support the manner in which he tried to implement them; while countless Hondurans would like to see some changes, including some implemented by someone like Morales (Bolivia) or Chavez, this does not mean they admire, like or even respect Chavez - who they liken to someone like Castro as opposed to someone like Silva (Brazil). Being associated with Cuba is generally a bad thing in Honduras, mostly because it is not uncommon for Cubans who know they likely can’t boat-it to the U.S. to shoot for Honduras where they are allowed to stay and their plights are well known ( http://www.nicaliving.com/node/3550 ).
If a re-election referendum is the plan, then announce it far in advance; if the referendum is to take place, don't control every aspect of it and all voter/ballot security with your private army; if you can’t get it past the Supreme Court on the first try, then don’t go get the ballots and take them home; if you want to instill confidence in the what might happen following the referendum, announce that well in advance; to demonstrate good-faith in the national process an eliminate the base argument from detractors, then prior to the referendum proclaim and sign an official order -accompanied by Congress, Court, & Military- that you will not be a candidate regardless of the outcome of the referendum and that any extended Presidential terms would start with the next President. These simple steps would have virtually insured the military would have never done anything, nor would they or any other politician had any desire to do so. The reason Zelaya couldn't opt for any straightforward approach like is that anyone claiming to be a 'Zelayaian" in 2009 has litttle chance of getting elected next year or any time soon. He had to do this because he couldn't run again, and none his inner party could have gotten elected next year. Had he really believed in real democracy then he would have took the chances that would resulted from basic steps like those outlined above (the Supreme Court, in a relatively rare act of sanity, offered a decent decision that almost presupposes a transition with steps like those above built into it).
Most Hondurans do not speak badly of their military. Not out of fear (as in some countries), but because they don't have much of any cause for doing so. Even with that, no one wanted this result; most people I ever met (and I live part-time in a common barrio in the capital not far from downtown; neighbors own tiny businesses, teach school, work in supermarkets and government offices, etc) or spoke to stated or implied that "...hopefully it just goes away and we can start over soon...". By "go away" some meant Zelaya himself, but many meant the idea of getting rid of Zelaya - they didn't want some lone gunman or the military to solve this and wanted Zelaya gone and an election delivering someone better. If Zelaya had tried to shoot his way out of the Palace and got killed, the likely explanation would have been some elaborate psych-babble martyr theory - since he had virtually no chance of accomplishing what he insisted on doing. But, that didn’t happen, and that makes it that much harder to decipher his motives or plan (he appears not to have ever had a “plan b”).
Honduras Political Blog
Ok, I guess it is politics. To me, a coup is a bit more than that but, in any case, it is Union Civica Democratica. Some is in English but the majority is in Spanish.
Really a coup (maybe, maybe not)?
Though far less important, as a practical matter it would not be considered a coup by most Hondurans since the term "coup d' etat" to them means a military takeover of the government and an abolition of a National Constitution. The takeover was remarkably short-lived and the National Constitution is in place (and was perhaps even upheld by the military, not abolished).
Technically, it likely wasn't even a coup according to Honduran law. As odd as it might seem, Honduras lacks a formal, constitutional impeachment process, least not one in the Constitution itself (the Honduran Constitution can be found here, via Georgetown University's "Political Database of the Americas").
Zelaya may have ceased to be able to legally act as President of the Country following his active insistence to proceed with a re-election referendum plan the Supreme Court had determined was illegal. While this may seem a weak reason when viewed from afar, Article 239 of the Honduran Constitution (not usually quoted in newspaper accounts inside or outside the country0 is pretty unambiguous: "ARTICULO 239 -- El ciudadano que haya desempeñado la titularidad del Poder Ejecutivo no podrá ser Presidente o Vicepresidente de la República. El que quebrante esta disposición o proponga su reforma, así como aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesarán de inmediato en el desempeño de sus respectivos cargos y quedarán inhabilitados por diez (10) años para el ejercicio de toda función pública.".
This, combined with a violation of Article 42 likely renders him not only non-President, but also non-citizen. This article, too, doesn't leave much for debate or interpretation: "ARTICULO 42 --- La calidad de ciudadano se pierde ... 5. Por incitar, promover o apoyar el continuismo o la reelección del Presidente de la República...".
Per the original Supreme Court opinion (which could hardly have been otherwise and still been coherent, legally), there is also: "ARTICULO 374 --- No podrán reformarse, en ningún caso, el artículo anterior, el presente artículo, los artículos constitucionales que se refieren a la forma de gobierno, al territorio nacional, al período presidencial, a la prohibición para ser nuevamente Presidente de la República, el ciudadano que lo haya desempeñado bajo cualquier título y el referente a quienes no pueden ser Presidentes de la República por el período subsiguiente".
Ordinarily, the Vice President would be sworn in as the new President. But, since the Vice President resigned in order to pursue a run for the Presidency (itself an illegal act per the Honduran Constitution), the President of Congress assumes the role when others are barred from doing so. If for some reason the President of Congress can also not assume the Presidency, then it falls to the President of the Supreme Court.
Oddly, the Honduran Constitution does not make clear who decides and implements National ruling-level violations of the above-named Constitutional Articles, though it is unclear it could be anyone other than the Supreme Court. If the military was acting on an order from the Supreme Court, and only assisted in the transition from a President who was legally incapable of fulfilling his duties and likely no longer a "citizen", then far from a coup the military's role/act might have actually enforced the requirements established in the Honduran Constitution. Or, at least someone could make that argument and unlike most things appearing in recent press releases, it would have some basis in Honduran history, law and fact. If someone outside Honduras watched only mainstream news from afar, they would likely have no idea that proposing what Zelaya proposed, in the fashion he did and in violation of a Supreme Court decision, was actually a very serious matter and very illegal.
Honduras still in the danger zone
Thanks again MJT for filling in all the details here! I Really appreciate it. I fully agree with you, when you are saying this "coupe" wasn't a "coupe", only a "Honduran impeachment procedure". Remember the word "coupe" was first used by Hugo, days before the military action on last Sunday. I'm sure the ALBA PR-machine was doing its very best to make believe everybody this to be a "coupe". I'm very glad Roberto Micheletti was sworn in yesterday and that he announced elections for November. It's also a good thing that most of your details were mentioned in the declaration of the new president. I regret that the word "coupe" was not strongly denied and the words "impeachment procedure" were hardly used and not emphasized. The Honduran PR machine is obviously not as good as Hugo's. The ridiculous statement of the European Union explicitly asking for the return of Mel, should have been strongly addressed. I think the Hondurans might be very proud on their military and democracy. Let's wait and see what Hugo is doing today. I hope it only will be another (excellent) PR-statement. The statements Hugo made yesterday in Managua denying the rumor about Venezuelan and Nicaraguan troops being already present in Honduras, seem to be hope giving. Also the new US statement Obama made not wishing Zelaya to return (thereby threatening Hugo not to intervene) helps. Honduras is still a bit in the danger zone. Have you heard of any Honduran military movements around airports?
Hmmm, three guesses where
Hmmm, three guesses where fyl will come down on this issue.
Huh?
I thought it was pretty clear that I am on the side of what's legal. This is starting to sound like the 2002 coup in Venezuela where the opposition said Chavez had resigned and blocked all the media they did not control.
Like or dislike Mel, if he did something illegal, use the system to address it. While I would have "enjoyed" a coup to toss out the Bush administration, I would not have supported it.
CNN Bing Blocked
Apparently CNN is being blocked in Honduras now.
cnn
was broadcasting continuously on both their english and spanish TV stations, with essentially the same slant as the FSLN and Venezolano stations. Their favorite trick, similar to the one often used by US [news reporters[ was to take closeup fotos of a tiny handful of protesters and not show that the street was essentially empty.
The military guards looked bored out of their minds to have to babysit this handful of crackpots.
¨Pata de Perro¨
lagringasblogicito.blogspot.com
to see fotos of a march {that CNN does not broadcast 75 times a day[
¨Pata de Perro¨
Costa Rica Input
Ese golpe es un precedente gravísimo para el área, independientemente de lo que uno opine de la gestión del presidente Zelaya (mi opinión al respecto no es precisamente favorable).
El presidente de mi país, Oscar Arias, lo pone clarísimo. No porque uno no esté de acuerdo con la gestión de un presidente eso da derecho para apoyar algo como un golpe de estado con todo lo que eso implica, como el email de Sue Helen nos deja claro.
Peor, sienta un precedente de que el ejército puede intervenir cuando le dé la gana si hay una confrontación entre ese cuerpo y dirigentes políticos.
Es una hora aciaga para nuestros hermanos hondureños y desde aquí manifiesto mi solidaridad absoluta al pueblo hondureño y mi condena más vehemente al golpe.
Un abrazo fraterno a tí, Sue Helen, y a todos los hondureños.
Mario Guerra
P.D: el presidente Arias ha manifestado que no se le ha consultado en absoluto acerca del aterrizaje del avión militar en el Aeropuerto Juan Santamaaría y él ha condenado inequivocamente el golpe
Nicaragua Info
Informacion desde Nicaragua
El presidente de Honduras se encuentra en CostaRica y esta dando una conferencia de prensa conjunto con el presidente de CostaRica
Nicaragua esta adelantando una reunion centroamericana SICA para el dia de hoy en la noche
Los presidentes de Honduras y CostaRica estarian llegando a Nicaragua el dia de hoy para esta reunion
Chavez a repudiado el golpe de estado de Honduras, ha llamado Gorilaz a los golpistas.
Estamos pendientes del evento centroamericano y podemos usar este canal de comunicacion para contar con informacion de varios paises y puntos de vista
Obamas first Coup
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14152
Obama's actions are curious.....
Obama was reluctant to make any public statements condemning the actions of the Iranian Government against its citizens, shooting them in the streets. It took him weeks to make any substantial statement.
But he is quick to denounce the ouster of a Chavez puppet, a legal action according to the Honduran Constitution.