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sugar cane burning
Submitted by johanneswilm on Wed, 2009/03/04 - 10:05.
Hey, given the huge amount of positive responses I usually get on NL, I thought I should post this as well.
We went out yesterday and used a small hand camera to film around the sugar cane burning of a field in Chichigalpa. The smoke was everywhere, including at a local school. Yet, director didn't seem to dare come out against the company much. Quite understandably.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xUBlFSlAlA&cc_load_policy=1
Now the big question is what should be done about this? Should the FSLN crack down on the company Cuba-style and nationalize it and hand it over to its workers all? Should it just regulate it? Should it just nationalize it and let the state run it, as it has recently become the custom in most first world countries? Should one institute a certificate system saying "this sugar has not hurt anyone in its production" like some here have suggested earlier for coffee produced without child labor?
The video is still undergoing verification. But once it's done I'll ad subtitles. The sound quality isn't all that great, given that this was shot with just a handy cam.
Edit: now with English subtitles
Edit 2: now with both English and Spanish subtitles. You can either select these through the Youtube menu, or instead use these direct links:
English: http://www.overstream.net/view.php?oid=nhlzlxlctsmn
Spanish: http://www.overstream.net/view.php?oid=n6r5rqt2mgr0
"But Nicaraguans are immune to pesticides"
Sorry, that's an inside joke and a bad one. I've had 3 separate young Nicaraguan men insist to me, in total seriousness, that all Nicaraguans are immune to pesticides, unlike us wimpy gringas. This was said after I told them that spraying toxic pesticides while wearing flip-flops, shorts, and nothing else is not the smartest idea in the world.
In all seriousness, irregardless of whatever chemical residue may persist on the cane, cane burning has been repeatedly shown to cause respiratory illnesses such as asthma, especially in children and the elderly. See here for a pretty comprehensive survey of the peer-reviewed literature from Louisiana, Brazil, and beyond: http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0034-89102008005000009&script=sci_a...
I personally would still argue that of the two, pesticides are the bigger problem, as they cause diseases which are more serious and fatal (cancer, liver and kidney problems, etc.), and as pesticides which are well-known to be highly toxic (e.g., DDT) are still used. But this is a lesser of two weevils (er, evils) situation - they're both bad, and in ideal world both practices would be severely restricted and/or measures which limit harmful exposure would be instituted.
-------
"Life is what happens while we're busy making other plans." - Pablo Neruda / John Lennon
Pesticides first, burning second
Yes. Burning fields that have lots of horrible unknown pesticides is a bad thing. We can all agree. Now let's split that into two parts:
A. Burning organic fields is probably a bad thing.
B. Polluting fields with lots of horrible unknown pesticides is a VERY bad thing whether you burn them or not.
So let's try to eliminate the pesticides first. Then, if burning is still a problem, let's go after that. Priorities.
Here is the scientific stuff
Here is the scientific stuff on sugar cane burning: http://www.ehponline.org/members/2006/8485/8485.html
Again, I don't understand the logic of just wanting to go after one problem at a time. Thinking like that, one may argue that these problems are way smaller than other problems in the world and so one should wait doing anything about them.
Now if one absolutely insists on only prioritizing one thing, are different ways of doing this:
1. prioritize the worst problem (the approach you and many others here seem to take)
2. prioritize the problem that technically can be done something about the easiest
3. prioritize that one most easily can rally support around politically locally
4. prioritize the problem that are most easily explicable to foreign solidarity groups, etc.
Now any of these may have equal reason for being prioritized. But again, I don't see the need for prioritization. If one makes the Pellas family sign any paper, it should likely contain both items.
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
Burning organic fields
falls under the same category as any air pollution if it is abused.
Nature teaches us that fire can be a great source of life. Wild fires that occur naturally are a perfect example. Farmers have burned their fields for various reasons annually for many thousands of years.
Field burning became a problem when man introduced pesticides and fertilizers that leave a deadly residue behind. The burning of those fields turns some of the residue into a deadly smog that, when inhaled on a regular basis can and will kill.
Fortunately a lot of research is being done to develop organic pesticides and fertilizers that do not have the dangerous qualities of the products used today.
Let's hope that this research receives sufficient funding and priority to produce positive result quickly. That way we all benefit.
I find it unfair to always point fingers at the corporate citizens of this world and hold them accountable for every negative aspect in life. If one feels that strongly about the corporate evil, that person should not drive a car, ride a bus, use a refrigerator and so on.
In my opinion, it is pretty well impossible to avoid contributing to the destruction of our planet and at the same time enjoy even a small part of the conveniences we have become accustomed to.
Let's stop being hypocrites and point fingers at anyone that runs a business, yet at the same time purchase or use their products. It is very seldom that an outsider knows the whole story.
I agree with the first
It is a miracle in iteself
that you Mr. Wilm and I agree on anything. But do you not also agree that if we feel strongly enough about an issue, we should lead by example and not just select issues that are convenient?
Unfortunately that is what you appear to do. As a matter of fact, this is my biggest issue with your various "crusades". You pick whatever you feel gives you the most milage as far a responses are concerned.
Am I in favor of pesticides and field burning? Of course not! This does not mean I should climb onto my soap box and vilify the corporations of this world. If I did this it would be like saying: "The care makers are destroying with their pollution producing horseless carriages" while at the same time driving a Hummer.
I feel that it may be more beneficial if you assembled a volunteer research team to address the problem, instead of looking for predictable reaction from an audience that is likely to agree with you.
This argument between which is worse is so Completely Off
As the US head (we have a Nica head as well with equal power) of La Isla Foundation and Affected Films I'm not really into calling anyone or their idea stupid but saying one is worse than the other, burning or pesticides, misses the point completely. It's borderline mystifying especially given that the whole crux of the video is that yeh, this smoke is awful, but you should be here for the pesticides. It's all right there, couldn't be any clearer if we tried. Also, the burning isn't a couple times a year, it cycles throughout the entire dry season and by making soil more fertile does not mean you use lest pesticides, maybe even the opposite sometimes actually.
What has been levied against the workers and community in Chichigalpa under the Pellas group owned Ingenio San Antonio is the result of structural and intentional violence. The burning, the pesticide use, intimidation, murder, beating, shutting off of access to the sea on public roads to further control the economy, the list goes on. All of it is bad, one is not really much worse than the other. It a narrative that plays itself out with different variables throughout Latin America and other parts of the world, far too often with only tragic results.
Chiquita, Dole, Monsanto, they've given smaller companies like Pellas Group, who are no midgets to be sure, a playbook.
In response to people claiming we're just throwing stones...please, we're a little more advanced than that and the film and website and these little shorts are just one angle of a bigger push. The fact is, our network and group are the only ones really doing anything.
Finally, the idea of the Pellas Group sitting down to discuss alternative growing methods and how it could be more profitable is adorable. I love the idea, we've invited them but they're content tp think that posting promises for sustainability on a website and running the PR campaign and having some marginal environmental programs like eucalyptus power somehow translates after the deaths and continuing terminal illness of so many workers. They've shown NO interest in sitting down for a chat, none of these companies change unless heavily pressured to do so and that's why we are always willing ot enter a dialogue but know that a multi-tier approach of scientific research, direct aid, film and legal pressure and effective community organizing are the only way we'll see a change.
Let's keep our eye on the ball and if anyone can get the Pellas group to sit down with us when they're not under legal pressure to talk about a solution and then act on it instead of excuses and smoke screens (no pun intended) then I'll take you out to your favorite restaurant in NYC, airfare included. No...I'm not kidding.
Good post! Except that
Good post!
Except that comparing the two does not really make sense to me. It's like saying more people die on the interstates in car accidents than bicyclists that get run over when one backs out out the driveway. Well, yeah, that may be the case. But hat does that say? That one should instead back out of the drive way all day rather than drive down the interstate? Backing out of the drive way and driving down the interstate are simply two different things that are part of the process of getting from A to B, using the car. Just as spraying pesticides and burning fields are two parts of sugar cane growing.
Now one can build a drive way with a wider view angel, and cars that go slower on the interstate (just theoretical examples). Both things help. Saying one shouldn't built wider drive ways because it doesn't make death statistics on the high way go down is non-sensical and makes it look as f one can only do one thing at the same time. -- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
More background information
For those NL-members following this discussion about the sugar cane plantations in Chichigalpa who would like some more unbiased background information in English, I recommend reading this (updated to March 2008) memorandum to the International Justice Mission in Washington D.C.. You'll find it all here; the lawsuits, plaintiffs, the legal dispositions, manipulations, delay tactics, the (known) used pesticides and Carlos and Vivian Pellas' resumes.
http://www.lightstalkers.org/human-rights-abuses:-sugarcane-famers-dying...
Pesticides are far worse
The fires burn off dead leaves and other biomass “trash” that would otherwise impede the harvest operation, increase transportation costs to the mill, interfere with milling machinery, and absorb sugar during the extraction process. Absorbed sugar cannot be recovered. Fields are burned immediately before harvest. The fires are rather spectacular but of short duration (a 40-acre field burns in 15-20 minutes). However if I watch your video you were at an already harvested field, that was burned again, to clean it up presumably. So it must have been harvested by workers. The best solution to prevent burning fields is using modern mechanical harvesters that rip off the leaves from the stem and save them separately, to be used as biomass fuel in some bio-gas plant for instance. But that will create unemployment...
As you know Renal failure and Chronic kidney disease caused by pesticides (and what the local headmaster in the video is talking about too) on sugar cane plantations is a much greater problem then the smoke a few days a year. This should really be addressed by the Nicaraguan government by regulations and enforcement. As you might not know, the char dust that is left on the soil after the burns each year, is making the soil much more fertile, and therefore reducing the amount of required pesticides. So maybe the discussion in this forum should address the pesticides and not the smoke...
I don't know if the sugar cane plantation you were filming, is owned by the Pellas family. But if that is the case, they might be willing to listen to you and do something. As you might know the Compañía Licorera de Nicaragua S.A. (member of Grupo Pellas), producer of the famous Flor de Caña rum, has been ISO 9001 and HACCP certified, which they are very proud off. They recently decided to brand themselves as eco-friendly. According to a press statement this year: "Compañia Licorera de Nicaragua has made a strategic commitment to the protection of the environment and to the recycling of manufacturing by-products, both requiring substantial investments. Today, the Flor de Caña distillery is known as one of the most efficient and eco-friendly such facilities in the world."
Nice ideas, now, welcome to our reality.
The NIcaraguan Government, including MINSA are completely intimidated by Pellas group, I have a video that I can share privately in order not to put the doctors at risk in it. They tell me flat out that they're scared to share their opinion that the disease, IRC, is linked to Pellas Group's Ingenio San Antonio because they don't want to loose their jobs!! How crap is that?
See this as well:
As the US head (we have a Nica head as well with equal power) of La Isla Foundation and Affected Films I'm not really into calling anyone or their idea stupid but saying one is worse than the other, burning or pesticides, misses the point completely. It's borderline mystifying especially given that the whole crux of the video is that yeh, this smoke is awful, but you should be here for the pesticides. It's all right there, couldn't be any clearer if we tried. Also, the burning isn't a couple times a year, it cycles throughout the entire dry season and by making soil more fertile does not mean you use lest pesticides, maybe even the opposite sometimes actually.
What has been levied against the workers and community in Chichigalpa under the Pellas group owned Ingenio San Antonio is the result of structural and intentional violence. The burning, the pesticide use, intimidation, murder, beating, shutting off of access to the sea on public roads to further control the economy, the list goes on. All of it is bad, one is not really much worse than the other. It a narrative that plays itself out with different variables throughout Latin America and other parts of the world, far too often with only tragic results.
Chiquita, Dole, Monsanto, they've given smaller companies like Pellas Group, who are no midgets to be sure, a playbook.
In response to people claiming we're just throwing stones...please, we're a little more advanced than that and the film and website and these little shorts are just one angle of a bigger push. The fact is, our network and group are the only ones really doing anything.
Finally, the idea of the Pellas Group sitting down to discuss alternative growing methods and how it could be more profitable is adorable. I love the idea, we've invited them but they're content tp think that posting promises for sustainability on a website and running the PR campaign and having some marginal environmental programs like eucalyptus power somehow translates after the deaths and continuing terminal illness of so many workers. They've shown NO interest in sitting down for a chat, none of these companies change unless heavily pressured to do so and that's why we are always willing ot enter a dialogue but know that a multi-tier approach of scientific research, direct aid, film and legal pressure and effective community organizing are the only way we'll see a change.
Let's keep our eye on the ball and if anyone can get the Pellas group to sit down with us when they're not under legal pressure to talk about a solution and then act on it instead of excuses and smoke screens (no pun intended) then I'll take you out to your favorite restaurant in NYC, airfare included. No...I'm not kidding.
Just for the record
I ran into some researchers from Harvard who were surveying the cane fields around Chinandega which is where the Flor de Caña rum factory is located. I presume the huge cane fields of the the area include some of the Pellas holdings. The Harvard group explained to me at the time they were doing environmental impact studies on pesticide runoff, particulate in the air and a lot of similar type stuff for the Nicaraguan government and the cane field operators with the aim of reducing said concentrations of pollutants. This was in May of 2007. The Harvard group included about 20 members of grad students and professors-looked like and sounded like they were there doing serious work to me.
Glaser here from La Isla
Glaser here from La Isla Foundation. The Harvard researchers are doing some good work but UNAN-Leon has done the prevalence study that is really the key to cracking this nut. Doctors and epidemiologists there are very well trained, many having received their educations in Sweden as well as Nicaragua.
And what was their
And what was their conclusion?
I received an email from a German medical student who thought what we had been doing was extremely dangerous -- being out there at the school and in the field without any sort of protection. Quite different from what guil and others have been claiming here, she claimed that the health risks associated with the burning of sugar cane fields were well-proven.
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
This is not really an
This is not really an "either/or" question. The tiny snippet addresses one tiny aspect of life in that area. I am not, and have never been claiming that this is the worst part of it. The real movie that these people have been working on for quite some time will address the main issue of pesticides more specifically.
What you are saying seems like as if I made a movie about the war in Iraq and how many US American youths die there, and you answer saying that way more kids are shot in drive by shootings in the US. Absolutely, and true. But that doesn't make the Iraq war any better.
But maybe you can explain why they promise to only burn on weekends (whether that is any better for those or not), but we are clearly able to film that happening on a Tuesday?
The Pellas-family has been well aware of the filming of the movie, and as far as what I understand from the film makers, the only reaction has been intimidation so far. But if you have some connections to the Pellas-family, then I am sure that they will be more than glad to "work it out" over a cup of tea or something. Check out Jason Glaser's blog here: http://agentglaser.wordpress.com/
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
And/And
Your youtube video is about pesticides too. La Isla and The Affected, which you mentioned, are all about pesticides. So don't blame me reacting on pesticides.
As far as I know the smoke of burning sugar cane fields is not causing any deaths in the world, while the use of pesticides in plantations certainly does! So your comparison with the Iraqi war in the above post is invalid in my view.
Jason Robert Glaser in his blog is addressing the pesticides as the main cause for kidney failures in the area as well (and is not mentioning the smoke at all). It has not been investigated scientifically what pesticide exactly causes the kidney failures in the Chichigalpa region and in what manner the pesticides are entering the human body of the victims. If it's caused by unprotected and careless spraying, by unprotected harvesting, through entering the water table, through human consumption of milk from cows that have been eating sugar cane leaves.... nobody knows. Fact is that since the year 2000 2400 people have died because of renal failures in the Chichigalpa area. If you or The Affected Foundation were intimidated by the Pellas family, I think the approach was wrong. Maybe it was threatening to them. Just throwing stones at a big Nicaraguan company isn't effective in Nicaragua. You should seduce and persuade them with a better professionally worked out and detailed business plan, showing them that less dangerous chemicals and eco-friendliness in sugar cane plantations leads to more profits.
BTW, I have no relations with the Pellas family what so ever, not even drinking their products.
Sorry to repeat myself buy this point needs to sink in.
As the US head (we have a Nica head as well with equal power) of La Isla Foundation and Affected Films I'm not really into calling anyone or their idea stupid but saying one is worse than the other, burning or pesticides, misses the point completely. It's borderline mystifying especially given that the whole crux of the video is that yeh, this smoke is awful, but you should be here for the pesticides. It's all right there, couldn't be any clearer if we tried. Also, the burning isn't a couple times a year, it cycles throughout the entire dry season and by making soil more fertile does not mean you use lest pesticides, maybe even the opposite sometimes actually.
What has been levied against the workers and community in Chichigalpa under the Pellas group owned Ingenio San Antonio is the result of structural and intentional violence. The burning, the pesticide use, intimidation, murder, beating, shutting off of access to the sea on public roads to further control the economy, the list goes on. All of it is bad, one is not really much worse than the other. It a narrative that plays itself out with different variables throughout Latin America and other parts of the world, far too often with only tragic results.
Chiquita, Dole, Monsanto, they've given smaller companies like Pellas Group, who are no midgets to be sure, a playbook.
In response to people claiming we're just throwing stones...please, we're a little more advanced than that and the film and website and these little shorts are just one angle of a bigger push. The fact is, our network and group are the only ones really doing anything.
Finally, the idea of the Pellas Group sitting down to discuss alternative growing methods and how it could be more profitable is adorable. I love the idea, we've invited them but they're content tp think that posting promises for sustainability on a website and running the PR campaign and having some marginal environmental programs like eucalyptus power somehow translates after the deaths and continuing terminal illness of so many workers. They've shown NO interest in sitting down for a chat, none of these companies change unless heavily pressured to do so and that's why we are always willing ot enter a dialogue but know that a multi-tier approach of scientific research, direct aid, film and legal pressure and effective community organizing are the only way we'll see a change.
Let's keep our eye on the ball and if anyone can get the Pellas group to sit down with us when they're not under legal pressure to talk about a solution and then act on it instead of excuses and smoke screens (no pun intended) then I'll take you out to your favorite restaurant in NYC, airfare included. No...I'm not kidding.
On a US site against field
On a US site against field burning (in general), I find this argument:
Many fields are sprayed with pesticides before they are burned. As a result, in addition to both coarse and fine particulates, the smoke can contain a complex mixture of toxins.
Should we maybe just agree that burning AND pesticides are a huge problem that needs to be dealt with immediately? And if you or others here can help with getting the Pellas family to change there mind, we will go for that. Else we'll have to go for their throat.
BTW: Jason is not in León, nor accessible by mobile phone. We made this little movie together, but neither he nor the foundation can be held accountable for my revolutionary Marxists statements made here. -- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
Serious
Just did a quick check on your quote and found this website:
http://www.toxicsblog.org/oregon-field-burning
This website is all about (specific!) grass seed field burning (and not sugar cane fields) in Oregon every summer, causing all kind of nasty health effects, but no reported kidney failures and no deaths...
If you or Jason suspect the smoke of the burning sugar cane fields being the main cause of renal failures and chronic kidney diseases in the area, why not just have it investigated? Smoke analysis equipment is commonly available. All fire brigades in western countries have this equipment standard on board and they use it in case of a fire. And why not contact Dr. Ramon Trabanino or Instituto Municipal de Salud Publica de Barcelona, who have done years of studying kidney diseases in the region. If you have clear proof of what is the direct cause, then it's much easier to find a quick solution.
I am serious about the Pellas family. You can't fight them. They are protected by the government, judiciary and police. The only way you can "fight" them is to join them and show them a better profit. In my view there's absolutely nothing wrong with a (bigger) profit as long as it's reinvested in the country.
BTW, Glad to read we agree on the problems and disagree on the solutions ;)
You must be on some drug or
You must be on some drug or other. Why would chemicals magically disappear when they are used in Nicaragua and sugar cane plants and not when they are used on grass seeds in Oregon? "Death to the Pellas family dynasty!" is all I can say. Sorry buddy, but your proposal of just continuing the corruption doesn't fly with me in any way or other. I really hope you have some respect for yourself and stop suggesting things like that.
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
You just have a hardon
You just have a hardon against anyone that climbs out of the poverty trench. In your twisted communist view we should all be poor and dependant on a giant government. You say death to the Pella Dynasty and I say death to communist propagandist.
I don't mind people having a
I don't mind people having a bunch of things - car (although I prefer cities with few of them and more bikes and/or trains/trams), tv, pool, house, vacation house, books, travels, etc. .
Of course there is a limit as to what is sustainable for all of us to have at the same time, but for most of us, that limit is still far away. Private helicopters, space crafts and multimillion dollar castles are to be counted to that.
What I have something against is if their wealth systematically is built up using the labor power and lifes of others.
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
I suppose Mr. Wilm,
when Union Leaders live in multi-million dollar homes and fly their private aircraft it is all right. After all they climbed out of the trenches without hurting anyone didn't they? Just ask all the Opel workers that are losing their jobs.
Why don't you have the intestinal fortitude to grow up and stop living the life of the perpetual student?
On second thought, don't answer that. I don't really care what some unproductive troublemaker does. Just don't tell others that they are the downtrodden masses when they are happy with their lifestyle.
You remind me of some of the students I knew in university. Always busy demonstrating against something. Never passed a semester without having to take at least one course twice.
I imagine that even you, had you applied yourself could have a Dr. to your name by now. Instead you are "working on it".
I am currently working on a
I am currently working on a contract for the government of this country and in addition I give a free seminar at the U de M in León, trying to advance the level of skills available this country. I don't think I owe you any details about any of that.
Just please stop comments that are based on other things than facts. Thanks!
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
And what part of my post was not factual?
Does the truth make you uncomfortable? Well it should!
I hope you have another nice and "productive" day.
This part "Why don't you
This part "Why don't you have the intestinal fortitude to grow up and stop living the life of the perpetual student?"
I do have a job and an income doing something very few others in this country would be able to. And even if I only were a student, that is not an argument for or against anything in this debate.
You clearly have a personal hatred for me. That is fine; you are entitled to that. But please stay on topic in these discussions.
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
You are very wrong Mr. Wilm,
I do not waste my time on negative emotions such as hatred. It is unproductive and in my opinion, a waste of energy. Negative emotions seem to be your specialty. I have yet to see one positive thread you started.
I fail to understand your one sided view of anyone that has collected a few pennies more than you. You seem to think making a substantial amount of money is a bad thing.
I fail to understand what motivates you to feed on the controversy you seem to enjoy to create.
I fail to understand why you apparently have nothing better to do than to tell everyone else how wrong they are, and how superior you opinion is.
I have yet to see a kind social post by you. (But then again I may have overlooked it.)
All in all, for a socialist you seem very unsocial.
You asked me to stay on subject. So let's address the subject:
Now I am not saying that the Pellas consortium is innocent of hard nosed business practices. They are (in my opinion) no more innocent than your socialist / communist union leader heroes are of taking advantage of the union members for their own benefits.
Since you feel so strongly about the subject of burning and the use of pesticides, I am certain you have a solution, or at least a suggestion, as how to alleviate the pesticide and burning problem. I for one would be interested what it is you suggest.
Just making a home video and posting it on U-Tube does not solve the problem. Let everyone on this thread know how you, Mr. Wilm, would go about making things better. Let's see if your proposed solutions are commercially viable. Let's see if your solutions would allow the company to continue to function profitable and thereby ensure employment to the thousands of workers they employ.
Just saying the company is bad and irresponsible does nothing to improve the situation. It is like saying: "I don't like the political party in power", and then not voting for change. Like another poster wrote: Come up with a way to get the company to sit down and talk about what needs to be changed and how to change it!
I sincerely doubt they will even allow you past the general receptionist unless you present a positive workable solution.
If you do not have a suggestion for improvement you lack credibility on the subject.
For sugar cane burning in
For sugar cane burning in specific you find more here: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VH3-4S39MSD-2...
That was found with a simple googling after "sugarcane field burning toxic". Also, although the other site is made in Oregon by an Oregon organization dealing with grass farmers, the wording is not limited to just those.
Look, they use chemicals on the plants we don't know what are and how they affect people, except that people around the fields die at an alarmingly high rate. There are two processes during which these are likely to be released on the public: during spraying, and during burning.
Although the school teacher may think that the burning is less risky, because the smoke stays with them for a shorter time (and likely because he doesn't dare say much against the company that has not been said before), the Oregon site specifically talks about how dangerous the smoke with burned pesticides is, even though it only stays for a short time.
So, neither one of us, ad maybe nobody, knows what part is more dangerous. In addition, it is not really important which part is more dangerous.
I think you talked yourself up into some corner with your claim that the smoke cannot be dangerous under any circumstances. I don't think any further discussion of this will make any sense as long as both of us continue this way.
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
Just to put you at ease
??? Just to put you at ease, I am no drug addict. I have a clear mind not infected with any political dogmas what so ever. I have no intentions to kill anybody. I've also no trouble with reading or cognition. So please carefully reread my posts and point me where did I suggest to continue corruption in Nicaragua and where did I claim that smoke cannot be dangerous under any circumstances ???
You did that here "I am
You did that here "I am serious about the Pellas family. You can't fight them. They are protected by the government, judiciary and police. The only way you can "fight" them is to join them and show them a better profit."
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
Pellas story...
I think you misinterpreted here. From other posts I made earlier, you could have guessed that I meant "fighting from the inside" by using the word "join". Let me elaborate on this:
There is a lot at stake. Compensations for the plaintiffs in all filed lawsuits against Pellas might be hundred of millions of dollars if not billions. For instance in December 2002, a Nicaraguan judge ordered three US companies – Dow Chemical, Shell Oil, and Standard Fruit (Dole Food Company) – to pay $489.4 million to 583 banana workers injured by Nemagon. A Nicaraguan court in March 2004 ordered Shell Chemical, and Standard Fruit to pay a group of 81 female plaintiffs $82.9 million in damages for their injuries suffered from exposure to Nemagon. Pellas is doing everything to avoid paying compensations. Even when Pellas was condemned in the current cases to pay some compensation, new lawsuits of victims that are still alive would be immediately filed. Pellas has strong trump-cards. It's hard to proof for the plaintiffs which pesticides were responsible for the deaths at the time and when and by whom these chemicals were used and how the chemicals entered their bodies. Til so far two of the suits were dropped because they lacked scientific evidence. The third suit received an out-of-court settlement in which the company denied responsibility but agreed to make “humanitarian payments”. Nicaragua has no regulations that controls and registers sales and uses of pesticides. The Ministry of Health MINSA has done lots of investigations but - surprisingly - didn't find a specific clou. Also remember the Sandinista Government expropriated the mill and properties of Pellas in 1988, and these were eventually returned in 1992. Production continued during this period, so the government is liable too! Pellas is also "protected" by the police, judiciary and government. Read the background information link for what Pellas is capable of. He has even been accused of bribing the plaintiffs lawyers. Besides that, he's got a far bigger budget then the plaintiffs. Ever wondered why La Prensa and El Nuevo Diario published almost nothing about these lawsuits, illnesses and deaths? Your guess is as good as mine...Pellas is a big advertiser in both newspapers. You mustn't be surprised if he's working out a libel lawsuit scenario (with a huge claim) against you or The Affected Foundation already. That's why real proof is so important. Not analyzing the smoke (by an independent agency!) last Tuesday is a missed opportunity I think.
That's why I'm stating that's better to "join" them and "fight" them from the inside at the conference table, working out some compromise that fits Pellas' new image and values ("trust, respect, humanitarism and responsibility") as advertised on their corporate website and satisfies all plaintiffs and prevents new victims in future.
Anyway, Pellas is making attempts to better itself. It financed the Unidad de Diálisis unit in Chinandegas hospital that's operational since 2007 and meant for the Insuficiencia Renal Crónica patients. Pellas is using less dangerous pesticides in less quantities nowadays then ever before, even using biological and mechanical control methods for insects and other pests according to a press release.
Buddy, I knew what you were
Buddy, I knew what you were saying, and basically it boils down to: "The Pellas manage to corrupt everybody anyways, so just stop before you even start." You are speaking in favor of corruption. Sorry, but that is not acceptable.
What the government should be doing is give them one last chance of loosing at a trial. If any other corruption cases are found out about during that time, they should nationalize all Pellas-property and run them out of the country. Period.
I understand that the past is the way the past is. However, that is seldomly sufficient to predict the future.
For example, the current financial crisis may still get way bigger than what it currently is, and all major capital holdings may turn to dust overnight. In such an event, clearly also the Pellas-family's power may be diminishing.
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
El Grupo Pellas y corrupción
I certainly was not speaking in favor of corruption in the above post! I was just describing the Pellas situation as it happens to be. El Grupo Pellas won these lawsuits because there was no satisfying scientific evidence. Just filing another lawsuit against Pellas (dealing with the same corrupt system) won't change this, if you don't collect more new convincing evidence. Not sure what you meant by "What the government should be doing is give them one last chance of loosing at a trial". Any plaintiff can file any lawsuit anytime in Nicaragua, you don't need the government for that...Did you perhaps mean that the government should use "its influence" to make Pellas lose this new lawsuit??? If that's what you meant, then I know a better word for it...
But why just file a new lawsuit against Pellas? There are more suspects:
Anyway a new lawsuit would take years, because delaying will be top priority of all defendants. If the verdict is a positive one for the plaintiffs, it will even take more years before the payout will take place. In the meantime many people will die.
Corruption in Nicaragua is a bad thing, but it wasn't introduced by Pellas you know. El Grupo Pellas is just using the corrupted system as everybody else in Nicaragua does from time to time. The greater the poverty in a country and the worse the trias politica, the more corruption you'll find. Corruption is a survival mechanism, that works if all other systems fail. You can only fight corruption by improving the economy. Nationalizing all companies in Nicaragua that used the corrupt system is therefore a (very) bad idea. It's surprising but true: If you study the corruption levels of Nicaragua since 1980 as published by Transparency International, you'll find out that corruption got worse since Daniel is back in power.
Dear guil, your argument has
Dear guil, your argument has changed directions so many times now, it seems you are more out after a witch hunt of me than make a serious argument for anything or against anything.
We cannot get around that you said that one should continue with corruption, and that the Pellas should continue getting richer.
What I suggest is that the government, or president per decrete, creates emergency laws against capital flight and hard penalties for any types of corruption that are being discovered.
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
Repeating ourselves...
It seems you and I just started to repeat ourselves in this discussion. So I suggest to end it, since most arguments have been mentioned now.
Communism is/has always
Communism is/has always been/always will be the most corrupt form of government. Look at what all of the leaders of that form of government have done in history. Power corrupts and it is much better in the hands of the people. At least they can blame themselves when something goes wrong. The most murderous and corrupt leaders in world history have always been a form of communism.
then again
That's his position and opinion,and you should respect it. bunch of people think is Un acceptable the way you think and being a communist,supporting the F$LN(who BTW are more corrupted than the Pellas) and all,yet you don't see anyone lecturing you about it do you? do you? well, do you? That's what I thought!!
nuff said.
You guys constantly throw
You guys constantly throw yourself at me as some kind of pro-capitalist mob that is surviving in a very peripheral of the world economy, while most of the capitalist world is literally going bankrupt.
So telling me that nobody is lecturing me is as far away from reality as can be.
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
Since you feel you are being "ganged up on" maybe you should
defend your position.
Let's examine the present situation and your apparent position:
Please correct me if I am wrong but you seem to view the capitalistic system as corrupt, inefficient and morally wrong.
You don't seem to be able to accept the historically proven pact that communism is a practically unworkable system.
Socialism is really only functioning at a reasonable level when it is coupled with a capitalistic system that pays for the exorbitant costs of the socialist system. One can look to Canada, Sweden, Germany and other first world countries for the confirmation of this fact. By the way, the US is moving into that direction as well.
How can you ever expect Nicaragua to find social equality if you wish to destroy or eliminate the few profitable businesses in the country? You need those "evil" businesses to pay for the handouts the socialists are so fond of distributing. Maybe you feel that the people occupying the rotundas in Managua are contributing to the fiscal health of the country?
For a person that considers himself intelligent and educated you have some strange ideas how to improve the world. You appear a poster boy for the old saying: "Book smart does not make a man smart."
Gee, I agree
I agree that the Capitalist system is corrupt, inefficient and morally wrong. I expect most people in the world feel that way, actually.
I feel any system of government can have problems based on implementation. Communism in the Soviet Union was a good example of a bad implementation. It suffered from much too much overhead and corruption—just like most governmental systems implemented on a large scale.
On the other hand, it would seem that Communism worked fairly well in Viet Nam until the U.S. decided to "fix things".
Or, compare Haiti to Cuba. Haiti is regularly "helped" by world Capitalists but the standard of living in Cuba, a country that has been boycotted for 50 years by its closest (Capitalist) neighbor, is clearly much better.
Now, what about the U.S.? Yes, even if you add up all the taxes (income tax, excise tax, vehicle tax, sales tax, capital gains tax, inheritance tax, gas tax, unemployment tax, social security tax, property tax, streetlight tax, ...) in the U.S., your total tax burden is probably a bit lower than Sweden and maybe even Canada. But, in the U.S. you, as an individual, don't get much for your tax money. Education through high school and roads you do get but not health care, higher education or even a reasonable retirement income.
The money does go to "corporate welfare" such as Boeing and Haliburton and, more recently, to bailing out those that secrewed the average home buyer. Ronald Reagan told us that "trickle-down" would help the rest of us. But, right or wrong, it is hard to call a corporate welfare state a real implementation of Capitalism.
Given the choice between real Free Market Capitalism and Socialism, I would probably pick Free Market Capitalism. But, at least in my lifetime, there has never been such a choice. If you want another opinion, ask any Libertarian.
So, back to the discussion at hand. It seems to boil down to "it's ok to kill a few people in order to make a profit because that profit will save others". To me, that's a moral issue. That's fine but I feel we need to frame it as such (rather than a choice of the best "ism") and then decide where we want to draw the line.
You are not reading what I
You are not reading what I am saying. Communism is corrupt.
Communism?
I think you must mean government. More government is more corrupt. Less government is less corrupt. The plus is that in Nicaragua there is a lot less government than in many places.
the few that we
have in our case,are as corrupt as thousands. So few in this case does NOT amount to kaka. Now if there were few,but honest, well, that would be a different story and a different country,for the better that's for sure :-)
Just power in numbers
My suggestion (which I could back up in at least Nicaragua and the US) is that most politicians are corrupt. But, if you have more of them then they have more power over you.
For much of the time when I lived in Washington state, Henry Jackson was a Senator. He was commonly called "the Senator from Boeing". If you worked at Boeing or for one of the companies supported indirectly by Boeing contracts, you very much understood. And Jackson was but one example of how the US government works.
Now, in Nicaragua, we have "Aleman's road", for example. It was a big deal but it was but one big deal. Here the national government has little money and, well, little power. Things happen in Estelí because of local government, not the national government. And, the more local the politician, the less they can get away with.
While we would probably disagree on whether the Bush/Cheney administration was more corrupt than the Ortega administration, the reality is that the actions of the administrative branch of the US government over the last 8 (or pick 16, 20, whatever) years has cost the average citizen a lot more than the actions of Ortega, Aleman, ... . have cost the average Nicaraguan, By "more" I mean a bigger percentage of income—of course it would be more dollars per capita in the U.S.
You need to
put emphasis on the pesticides used,rather than the burning of it,thou burning it may cause trouble,just like ANY smoke will. it is practiced in Florida and and and????? Could it be,because that is all you have a video of burning sugar cane,you are making an overkill of the burning?? perhaps !!!!
Two issues
I see two issues here: chemical makeup and distribution.
The chemical makeup of the smoke is one issue. The heat from burning could (probably does but I am not going to play chemical engineer) convert the chemicals in pesticides, fertilizers and the cane itself into something nastier than it's parts.
That said, distribution is the big part. As a different example (which I do know a lot about), take plutonium. If you had some in a carefully sealed paper bag, leaving it on your desk would be pretty much a non-issue. If, however, something like a gram of plutonium, carefully distributed in the lungs of the people in the world, would cause thousands of cancers.
While, once again, we don't know exactly what we have in this smoke, the fact that it is smoke being distributed over a populated area is a lot more dangerous than the chemicals sitting on the ground.
No, it's more because I know
No, it's more because I know there is a whole movie in the working about just that. A film team has been working on that for a long time. Of course Jason would give me the footage of that as well, but the point is not to compete with this great project of theirs in any sort of way.
Please don't take it as me trying to explain the world in 3 minutes. It's just one tiny aspect of it, and the end screen, which references their website, should get people interested enough to check out what kind of work they are doing on it.
There may be more such smaller movies about side issues that are not going to be in the final movie, but I cannot guarantee that. My main aspect of my work here in Nicaragua is not the Pellas-family. Most of what I film is Sandinistas doing various things, so I would fx be quite interested in talking to the newly elected Sandinista mayor of Chichigalpa, who is supposedly very much in conflict with them.
As to the smoke: Of course there is a difference between inhaling the smoke from a burning tree, from a burning car and a burning field that was sprayed with various toxic chemicals before burning. Also, what chemicals are used have a huge influence.
-- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
Hey, the reason they didn't
Hey, the reason they didn't talk about the burning until now was that they had no footage of it. Last time they had been tricked into coming a day late out there to catch it. Jason went out there with me, and they happened to be burning. He had to go to a million other places and so he asked me to compile this little video together. He is actually holding the camera and asking a bunch of the questions. So Mr., that doesn't really cut it. As far as I understand it -- this is what I have been told recently, I don't claim to be an expert on this -- when you burn this stuff that has been sprayed with a bunch of pesticides before, those also go up into the smoke. I personally have not been intimidated by anybody, at least if one doesn't count the kind of stuff people have thrown at me in this forum. And no, I'm not in the business of giving big rich families even higher profits. I believe that the huge gap between those who have and those who don't is the major problem in this world. -- Johannes Wilm http://www.johanneswilm.org
Sugarcane
I dont understand what is the problem here. Who is Big Sugar hurting? Why does the government need to get involved? When I lived in northern Queensland they always burned sugar cane. without any problem. Except for the snakes and the rats that would run out of the fields and into the neighborhoods.
Regulate...
I think having the government take over private entities is very inefficient as Government knows nothing about how to run a business ( See Fannie & Freddie Mac). Your suggestion of having El Frente take over this company is just plain irresponsible and should not even be a consideration. Placing strict regulations in place will force private companies to be more efficient, earth friendly, etc. How about carbon credits? Make them pay for carbon credits...if company A wants to pollute the environment in which it operates, then make them buy carbon credits to offset the damage created by its actions to the environment and the population in its vecinity. If that doesnt work..shut down the polluting plant and impose heavy daily fines and watch how quickly the cure all deficiencies.
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Viva Leon....... Jodido!