Ortega Said, um, Something about Protestors

Submitted by fyl on 6 July, 2008 - 15:19.

I have just read four short articles in English stating what Ortega said with regard to the 27 June protest and the proposed protest for next Friday. Each one differs in what it says he said and adding my less that perfect translation from Spanish would probably not help. Try this link as it has one version and also includes links to the three others.

Each will tell you he said the U.S. is financing the protests. They seem to differ in, however, what he says he will do. Here is one version:

"We want peace, but we're also prepared to raise the steel weapons of war if they try to overthrow the people's government, the power of ordinary citizens," Ortega said on the 29th anniversary of the rebel uprising that overthrew the Anastasio Somoza dictatorship.

Maybe I am missing something but I don't see anyone trying to "overthrow the people's government". I see people calling for transparency. Even in the poll we have here on-site, that is by far the most important issue. Second is him not helping the poor enough.

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Submitted by Alra on 9 July, 2008 - 00:42.

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what nicas think

Submitted by pcnren on 7 July, 2008 - 10:57.

I think that among the more affluent Nicas you see less support for Ortega. A lot of the Sandanistas are folks from the campo and believe the words of Ortega. He will reduce poverty, create jobs, decrease illiteracy and build schools, blah blah blah. During the transportation strike people were painting Viva Ortega on their busses. When are they going to wake up? I know some people that are staunch FSLN and nothing will really deter them from the party. Literally, they will defend the actions of Ortega until the day they die. Not to mention a LOT of people are in positions with MINSA, Mined, and alcaldias where their devoted affiliation with the party has given/kept their jobs. Its just sad to see. I lived there for two years in a small mountain town, and now that I have been back in the States a few months, I worry about where its all heading. No one wants censorship, but they aren't doing a whole lot to prevent it.

For instance ...

Submitted by fyl on 7 July, 2008 - 11:14.

Let's say for a minute that Ortega is trying to do exactly what the poor FSLN followers hope for. What tools does he have at his disposal? Specifically,

  • Where does the money come from?
  • Where do the jobs come from?
  • What can he do with "unnecessary" but politically correct people. (I see 2 or 3 TELCOR people standing near their offices BSing every time I go to the post office.)
  • What can Nicaragua do to compensate for rising energy costs?

With the president of the most powerful nation on earth watching his country go down the economic tubes because of rising energy costs, rising unemployment and lack of productivity, what chance does Ortega (or any other Nicaraguan leader) have of solving Nicaragua's economic situation?

520+ million answers?

Submitted by GreenGold on 10 July, 2008 - 14:01.

"Where does the money come from?"

From our Lord and Savior, Uncle Hugo, via Alba or Albanisa or Carnuna or wherever Danny-boy and the witch have stashed it. That would be a good start, maybe?

Oh wait, only F$LN ministers' companies need apply. CPC members have second priority. Arriba los pobres, suuurrreee...

Again, you have it ass backwards

Submitted by ATZ on 7 July, 2008 - 22:22.

Productivity has been rising. Country is not going down the tubes.....economic or otherwise. Just because you have an unremitting hard-on for the USA, doesn't make your analysis correct. Yeah, times are not great.....but nothing goes along in a straight line in any discipline, ever. USA is better than most places you could be. I am in NICA not because I hate being in the USA, but by choice for other reasons.

The best advice on this site, which professes to be to help people thinking about coming here, is that if you are coming to escape a place you hate, you probably will hate it here, Just like you FYI!! You deny it, but it is sooooo obvious. You cannot talk about white vs. brown eggs without saying something negative about the country which let you make the money to come here and do what ever it is you are doing. And find a young wife. And be a bit of a king. Bahhhh on you. ATZ

Real concerns

Submitted by Chele John on 7 July, 2008 - 05:29.

What some of us are concerned about is these protests will be used as an excuse for Ortega to take more control of the country. Limiting peoples rights and, in effect, playing the same game he played so many years ago.

Using his proposed gringo threat as an excuse to cement his, and Rosario's, control over the country.

Make no mistake. This is not the same Ortega of old. His wife is the one to watch. Exercising her own control over him and the party in ways never seen before.

Keep your eyes open. Things are getting "interesting", which may not be a good thing for some who thought they had found a quiet place to retire.

Watching both sides

Submitted by fyl on 7 July, 2008 - 06:18.

Today, we know how much involvement the U.S. government had in the "anti-revolution" of the 1980s. It started coming out at Iran-Contra time but, since then, so much more information has become available—particularly about how cocaine importing to the U.S. was used as a revenue stream.

The problem was that it took 10-20 years for that information to become reasonably available. Worse yet, some people still pretend that no such thing happened.

In that 20+ years, the big change has been communications and, most important, the ability for virtually anyone to become an international news source. Some first-hand knowledge and and Internet connection can get information out to thousands and even millions quickly. For example, the MRS uses both a web site and a mailing list to make information available.

While Internet censorship is possible (China does it), it isn't something that could be implemented in Nicaragua nor most of the world quickly. Sources are international (this web site is hosted in Texas, NicaPlaza.com in New York I think and NicaPages.com in Germany as examples) so information will get out.

Going back to the 1980s, look at what Witness for Peace did in Nicaragua. They dispatched teams to the scene of "incidents" who wrote up what had happened and made them available. (I have about 600 such reports.) But, availability was very limited because of available infrastructure. Today, the same type of effort could easily get this type of information out to millions virtually immediately.

While the U.S. still has an advantage (satellite survailance, for example), there is a lot more information available today. If Ortega has some real information, he needs to make it available. The same goes for everyone else. If we all put some effort into watching what is happening and documenting it, a repeat of the 1980s is impossible.

Speech

Submitted by Alra on 6 July, 2008 - 16:21.

IMO, The articles didn't differed on what he said, the articles are quoting different parts of the same speech.

The speech reported by END, here: www.elnuevodiario.com.ni/politica/20579

IMO, the poll conducted on this site, does not entirely reflect the sentiment of the Nica. people.

Al

with respect

Submitted by dirtbag on 6 July, 2008 - 21:56.

if you are on the ground, what exactly is the sentiment of the Nica People? Obviously, TALK is cheap, not just in the so-called Art of Politics. I hate politics and part of the U.S. cradle to grave propaganda is political, it would take an epistle of a post for that one. I personally think that Nicaragua can't expect much from leadership., in Government,for the next couple of years at least. You can't change facts only the way you look at them and the next couple of years will be hard for.. across the board.. Nica's. I hope I have it wrong.

RE: Speech

Submitted by Alra on 7 July, 2008 - 21:50.

Holad D.B.,

With all the respect you deserve. I posted in reply to Fyl's questions and comments. The issue that has raised concerns was in reply to this statement: -Fyl "Maybe I am missing something but I don't see anyone trying to 'overthrow the people's government'. I see people calling for transparency. Even in the poll we have here on-site, that is by far the most important issue"

My reply: "IMO, the poll conducted on this site, does not entirely reflect the sentiment of the Nica. People"

One issue with the poll, for example, I can not make a poll where i frame the questions to elicit the answers i want just to use it later to support my own arguments. (I think that Fyl made the poll with the best intentions) Politicians do it all the times.

BTW, you don't need to be "on the ground" to realize what is taking place, the protest was widely reported and audio/video streamed in the Internet.

IMO(again)The Protest underlying theme was that Ortega must step-down and that the Ortega-Murillo dictatorship will suffer the same faith that Somoza had.(Main issue was not transparency)

Ortega's reply came in last Saturday "We want peace, but we are also prepared to raise the steel weapons of war,...etc, etc"

So the stage has been set. My question is whether the army and or the police will obey the order to fire upon the people.

I wish that this events weren't happening and that we could be talking about "happier" things, but that is only wishfull thinking.

If time is worthless, then talk is cheap. I have meant to prepare a short reply but it became a long one.

Best wishes,

Al

Looks different here

Submitted by fyl on 8 July, 2008 - 05:51.

Your read is very different from mine. Here in FSLN-land, I don't see anyone asking for Ortega to step down. I see people complaining about the price of food and fuel and saying the government needs to do something about it. Do something that really helps the people on the bottom.

This is where being here on the ground matters. Watching political speeches—both pro- and anti-Ortega—is one thing. Some may be real, others opportunistic—that is, rising energy costs will hurt any leader making it a good time to say your ideas are better than Ortega's.

Much like using telephone polls to show what the average Nicaragua thinks/wants, news coverage is more likely to cover a Montealegre making a speech than campasinos 20 km from Condega talking about what they see/want. For example, another recently posted that during the transportation strike, lots of people had written Viva Ortega on their buses.

Only time will tell but I just don't see another revolution in Nicaragua's future right now.