Land trafficking

Submitted by nicareal on 18 May, 2008 - 18:37.

The words sure sound ominous, serious, and yes, even criminal.

Some relatively new members of Nicaragua Living have used the phrase several times in recent posts accusing other members of that particular crime. Since this phrase was new to me I decided to investigate and see if I could find a legal definition of “Land trafficking”. After all: “Inquiring minds need to know!”

I found references to: Drug trafficking, Arms trafficking and a few other illegal activities. Nowhere on the great World Wide Web did I find a legal definition of Land trafficking. In fact, the only 100% hit on that query were those very posts.

Since I am not easily discouraged, I decided to take my search one step further and I asked a lawyer. The response was somewhat unexpected since the term “Land trafficking” conjures up visions of men in dark clothes hiding behind dark sunglasses, lurking behind trees and waiving escrituras. The response was outright laughter. The lawyer thought that my question was one of the funniest questions he had been asked in some time.

After he recuperated, he explained that there was no such thing as a “Land trafficking law”. He went on to explain that the sale of land was not covered under the criminal code and therefore not illegal. He said that to the best of his knowledge the sale of property was not a criminal activity anywhere in the world. If it were, there would not be enough jails to hold all the offenders.

I am reasonably sure that anyone that accuses someone of a crime that does not exist in any legal system must have an overactive imagination and should therefore be forgiven. If they are taken seriously they could be subject to a slander lawsuit. Or then again.... maybe not.

I did not have the heart to ask the lawyer another question and maybe have him have another laughing fit.

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land trafficking as a definition

Submitted by daffodilbeauty on 22 May, 2008 - 10:22.

Jon

Lets keep it simple, acqiring and selling land to which you do not have clear title or lease is land trafficking.

Keeping it simple

Submitted by nicareal on 22 May, 2008 - 12:40.

When acquiring land the buyer does not have clear title since he/she does not own the land. Therefore no crime is committed by the buyer unless he/she knows this is stolen property. The onus of providing a merchandisable title is on the seller. If the seller is involved in a crime such a fraud or other criminal activity in relation to the sale of the property the basic penal code is applied.

In my opinion, this is the same as someone trying to sell a stolen car with false papers.

I can give you a dozen phone

Submitted by daffodilbeauty on 22 May, 2008 - 10:20.

I can give you a dozen phone numbers of lawyers including that of the Procurador General (Attorney General)Hernan Estrada in Nicaragua who will be happy to explain to you the concept of traficantes de tierra or land traffickers. Like all organized criminal conspiracies, you rarely convict on the actual crime but subsidiary activities, For example the Untouchables FBI unit in the 1930's got the Chicago mob on tax evasion not any actual crimes of extortion or otherwise.

You should not be a realtor in this country if you are so naive to believe this activity is not a festering virus in Nicaragua.

La Flor will still be happy to meet with you, Jon, but get real.

So now you are a lawyer?

Submitted by nicareal on 22 May, 2008 - 12:24.

And I quote: "Like all organized criminal conspiracies, you rarely convict on the actual crime but subsidiary activities" Wow, pretty sophisticated words for someone that refers to their supposed partner as "My man".

I'll be sure to ask the Procurator General during our next meeting to clarify the situation. The explanation I received from his staff however was pretty clear to me: There is no single law encompassing the term “Trafficantes de Tierra”. This was the point I was making all along. But maybe you know more than the government.

I still feel that you should make your case publicly and not in individual meetings. Again I encourage you to make the documents you claim to possess public on the internet so everyone can form an opinion. I live and work here so it is easier for me to form an opinion about the players in the Flor de Maya saga.

As for being naïve, that may be so but there are many clients that are happy to deal with this “naïve realtor”. Since I am not involved in court battles over fences or disputed property or anything else, I may be at a disadvantage in my knowledge of the civil or criminal justice system. You on the other hand seem to have lots of experience.

As we all know there are a lot of dogs in Nicaragua. Therefore the saying:

If you want to run with the big dogs, don’t piddle like a puppy!

As for the meeting, I'm still waiting for you to make the appointment. You know where to find me.

I’m just not sure how a little realtor like me can help your case and why you would even care what I think.

Any one know what Kipnaping

Submitted by Ometepe Inn Brewery on 22 May, 2008 - 08:10.

I had an attorney in Rivas use a term "Kidnap the property" any one tell me in simple English what this means? Thanks

Trafico de Tierras y/o de Propiedades

Submitted by Alra on 18 May, 2008 - 21:28.

The term "Land Trafficking"= "Trafico de Tierras", perse, may not be an specific crime but involves crimes such as fraud, larceny, falsification of documents, etc. etc. There's a list of alleged "Traficantes de Tierra"="Land Traffickers" under investigation by the (PGR) Procuraduria General.

The Term "Trafico de la propiedad"="Property trafficking" has been used by the Nica. Atty. Gral. Procurador General in a Case against a Estate lawyer an notary(No Names) resulting in imprisonment.

Since by yourself can not check the facts, tell your laughing lawyer to check: END of 02/09/08 and END of 3/08/08.

Al.

Would theft of property

Submitted by nicareal on 18 May, 2008 - 22:17.

or theft of land not be a better description in this case?

From what I could determine, the term "Traficantes de Tierra" is used as a description of persons that engage in crimes such as fraud, larceny, falsification of documents, etc. in order to gain possession of a property in order to sell that property to other parties. There is no such specific crime in the penal code of Nicaragua.

I did take the time to check the penal code of Nicaragua and could not find the term mentioned or a law addressing this specific crime. In any criminal case involving property, the charges were specific such as fraud, larceny or falsification of documents. The press and some trial lawyers are very fond of the term "Traficantes de Tierra" since it has a dramatic ring to it. This however does not make it a offence by law.

So I guess the lawyer had a right to laugh :)

Land Trafficking a funny and laughable matter

Submitted by Alra on 19 May, 2008 - 14:21.

From La Prensa of 2/11/08: "Los Problemas del Trafico de Tierras son gravisimos en el pais al punto que, segun el procurado Hernan Estrada solo el narcotrafico se le compara en peligrosidad"

"The problems of Land trafficking in the country are very grave to the point that, according to procurador Hernan Estrada, only narcotrafficking is as dangerous."

Note: Hernan Estrada is the Procurador General de la Republica, imo the equivalent to Attoney General in the U.S.A.

Continues: "...Para luchar contra el Trafico de Tierras, la PGR (Procuradoria General de la Republica) tiene planeado elaborar un inventario de todas las propiedades del Estado y registrarlas en su nombre"

"To fight against Land Trafficking, the PGR has planned to create an inventory of all the properties that belong to the Estate and register them in its name"

Since you don't like newspapers bc after all, they slant and exagerate the news, I suggest to do a search in the Nica government PGR website, here: www.pgr.gob.ni, you'll find a report entitled "Otro notario condenado, esta vez por Trafico de Tierras"

"Another notary convicted, this time for Land Trafficking" in it, you'll find the names of the people that have laughed their way into prison for Land trafficking"

I bet that to the victims of this crime, it isn't that funny.

Keep on Laughing,

Al

Alra

Submitted by nicareal on 19 May, 2008 - 15:24.

please point out the "Land trafficking law" in the penal code of Nicaragua or the US for that matter. Please explain to me how a legal activity such as selling property can be illegal and be termed trafficking?

I found several definitions of trafficking:

1.) To pass goods and commodities from one person to another and for an equivalent in goods or money; to buy or sell goods; To barter; to trade.

2.) To trade meanly or mercenarily; to bargain.

3.) The commercial exchange of goods; trade.

4.) Illegal or improper commercial activity

There are of course many more such definitions but they pertain to trafficking in Humans, arms, drugs, weapons and such. Each of them requires specific national or international laws to make the activity illegal.

I am still looking for such a law governing the sale of property specifically.

I realize that this is a fine legal point and maybe the intent of the term should be acceptable and sufficient. I just found it strange that a North American would use the term.

It appears that in Nicaragua property titles are a somewhat greater issue than in other parts of the world. This may stem from the fact that Nicaragua is partially on the old "Hard Copy" system and is in the process of computerizing. In addition the high illiteracy rate of the older population aggravates the situation. Many of the older campesinos are illiterate. Even people in their 30s can barely write their own name. As fare as being able to read an escritura... forget it.

This opens the door for unscrupulous lawyers and notaries to take advantage of the vulnerable clients. As we all know, this is happening not only in Nicaragua. The government of Nicaragua is working hard to stop this type of abuse and is in fact, as Alra pointed out, prosecuting the guilty.

Questions

Submitted by Alra on 20 May, 2008 - 01:13.

The Question of pointing out where in the Penal Code is the "Land Trafficking Law"? should be asked to the people that are behind bars because of it.

* Or it could be asked to the Office of the Atyy. Gral.(PGR)

* Or to the Supreme Court of Justice (CSJ).

* Or to the Judicial Power.

All three have interactive websites.

Al

Interesting article in LP today

Submitted by nicareal on 20 May, 2008 - 07:13.

http://www.laprensa.com.ni/archivo/2008/mayo/20/noticias/nacionales/2606...

As other posters pointed out, this seems to be a problem more frequent in remote locations. The problem of "Stealing property from farmers" is certainly a nation wide one and it is not new. From what I was able to determine and from what I hear in the department of Rivas, the guilty parties seem to be mostly Nicaraguan nationals. Please note I said mostly!

Alra, being a native Spanish speaker, has pointed out correctly that the term “Traficantes de tierras” is used in the Nicaraguan press and by officials. I believe that Procurador General, Hernán Estrada, gave a very good explanation why he uses that term.

“Era una gran banda como lo dijo el Procurador General (Hernán Estrada), que están comparados con los narcotraficantes; por eso se les llama traficantes de tierras, porque son tan bien organizados y una ‘telaraña’ tan bien armada que no es tan fácil terminar con ella”, insistió la funcionaria.

What is going on in Gigante is an exception and I would expect the courts to uphold the law and side with the native community. I feel that quite a few people may be surprised at the outcome when the dust settles.

resultion in gigante / playa amerillo

Submitted by beachin on 20 May, 2008 - 07:27.

will be out in july , so i was told by the procuradora in rivas.

www.nicalandsales.com

Wow word gets around fast

Submitted by nicareal on 20 May, 2008 - 17:19.

I was at the ministry in Managua today and they told me the same thing. I am truly impressed with the effort made by this administration to secure land titles and to clean up the current title related problems. From my perspective the situation is already much improved and is getting better on a daily basis as the records are moving to computer based archives. The fact that this administration is actively fighting to eliminate corruption also helps

Thanks for the post Howard.

4 of us will get titles

Submitted by beachin on 21 May, 2008 - 16:55.

i understand the state is going to reclaim there land.

not sure whats going to happin with the coop that has set up camp there.

T I will get to keep his , i belive he has 39mz left.

www.nicalandsales.com

Good for you and T

Submitted by nicareal on 21 May, 2008 - 18:32.

I have a couple of folks waiting in the wings to move ahead as soon as this is settled. No way I would let them get into the middle of this. Last time we spoke he told me he had 39mz. The coop will likely have to fight it out amongst themselfs and with the state. That should be interesting... Good thing there is another entrance on the north side.

From what I was told the state may just keep the land and turn it into a public surf / camping park. (Kind of like a National Park.) We'll see.

If I may interject a comment

Submitted by Daddy-YO on 19 May, 2008 - 19:25.

I'm no lawyer, but I caught something in one of Alra's quotes that may clarify this discussion. It had to do with listing "todas las propiedades del Estado" which I understand to mean "all the properties of the State" which is to say government-owned lands.

Poor people homestead or squat on 'unoccupied' lands, build their little shacks, and scratch out a living for themselves and their numerous children. If it's government land, they often turn a blind eye. But then if the squatters try to sell it to someone, I would venture to guess they'd be charged with 'land trafficing' if caught (which may be rare). It must be common in remote parks and reserves.

You are correct

Submitted by Alra on 20 May, 2008 - 01:01.

Thanks,

Al.

thanks for post

Submitted by BlackEagle on 19 May, 2008 - 05:44.

food for thought

Helping a lawyer laugh

Submitted by thom on 18 May, 2008 - 20:40.

Helping a lawyer laugh himself to death would be a gift

to all mankind. Please tell him more:)

I recall

Submitted by beachin on 20 May, 2008 - 06:57.

in the paper less then a year ago one women sent to jail for land trafficing up north .

beach www.nicalandsales.com