Should Nicaragua Change the Visa/Residency Process?

Submitted by fyl on 4 October, 2007 - 13:58.

This forum is inspired by a couple of comments in http://www.nicaliving.com/node/10659 and my own previous thoughts. As that discussion was pretty off-topic from the original subject, lets see where we can go here.

First, the current visa process is a "no questions asked" 90-day visa for many entering (US, Canada, Australia and many other countries). The 90-day visa can be renewed once at an immigration office. After that, you must (in theory) leave the country for 72 hours before you can re-enter.

The reality is that some people just overstay and, if they ever leave, pay the fine. Others "send their passport" on a trip to Costa Rica. I have never seen the 72 hours enforced and know of one person who only spent enough time in Costa Rica to get their entry and then exit stamp.

A bunch of residency options exist for various reasons including retirement. They come in one-year and "permanent" flavors where permanent means renewing your cédula every five years. Getting citizenship will get you out of the "hoop-jumping for cédula renewal" game.

Now, what should there be. That is, are these options good or should there be something else? Tossing out my opinion, the current set of options and requirements would be pretty decent if:

  1. All the requirements were clear. I, for example, had a fight with immigration over a police report from the US. The actually requirement in the law is police reports from everywhere you have lived in the past five years. That was Costa Rica and Nicaragua. They said I needed one from the US. To make matters worse, I had one (from a year ago) and haven't even been in the US for over five years but that one was "expired".
  2. Actually offer residency services at all the offices. There is, for example, an office in Estelí. I can purchase for C$3 the forms to apply for residency but I can't even turn them in at the local office.
  3. Accept "almost right" residency requests. That is, if you are missing one form, immigration could accept the other papers and hold them while you get the one additional one. This is important as some paperwork is only valid for 90 days and could easily expire while you were waiting for the next one.

If these problems can't be addressed, how about a 1-year "provisional" residency. This could be not much more than a visa other than it would give you a Nicaraguan ID that would allow you to open bank accounts and such. Even if you are very serious about getting residency, 90 or even 180 days can go by quickly trying to get your paperwork together. For example, the last time I ordered a birth certificate from the State of California, I was told it would take 11 to 15 weeks to process that request.

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Should the visa residence proces change?

Submitted by jimmy c on 6 October, 2007 - 10:53.

You mean should it keep changing, it changes every day and it changes from official to official and it changes from department to department. At least no one can accuse it of being outdated or inflexible.

That's the change I want

Submitted by fyl on 6 October, 2007 - 11:08.

One where it doesn't change. For me, the changing part is the problem--whatever it is can be dealt with if it can be well-defined.

Reminds me of something a "very successful" businesswoman said about the IRS. "Every time they change the tax laws we have to again figure out what to do to make the amount of money we want."

Thats the change I want accros the board but will not get

Submitted by jimmy c on 6 October, 2007 - 12:47.

And as we know that day to day, official to official, department to department change exists in the transit police, marriage laws, taxes and everything official like that.

I have come to two realizations when dealing with bureaucratic offices.

1. More or less no one knows what there talking about. As in what are the actual requirements to do certain things ect. This includes officials, the man on the street and the posters on internet forums.

2. The officials don't have to know what there talking about because no one cares about the actual law and they have the approval stamp and the ability to use it or abuse it if and when they like.

So there are three stratagems one can employ.

1. Fight the system. Argue with the official who says you need this document If the law says you don't ect. This stratige is certain to fail so save yourself the frustration.

2. Aviod all public offices and procedures when possible. Do the visa run every 90 days, don't transfer you're car to your name ect. It works OK but the longer your in country the more likely you are to want to start using the third stratagem.

3. Work with the system. If the official says you need something you don't think you need come back a few hours later and ask another official, pay bribes when necessary etc. It's possible but not easy.

let us know how you get an

Submitted by Billy Bob on 5 October, 2007 - 10:38.

an authenticated DL or gun permit from the US. I think they never heard of such things. AZ won´t even give police reports, they send you to waste 3-4 months with the FBI, although FYL says you can get a report from Wash State for $10 even tho you never lived there (its all on a national computer system and so it doesn´t really matter where you lived).

"Poverty is the best recycler"

Permits and license..

Submitted by Doug on 6 October, 2007 - 11:12.

The gun permit issuing agency (county sheriff) wrote me a notarized letter that I possess a valid concealed permit, I had a notary copy the DL, we then had apostilles from the State Dept of License (for the notaries license), and authentication from the area Nica consulate. I was told these would work, reality will show. The Washington state DMV seems to be fairly non-responsive to questions and requests from mere citizens.

-Doug

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate

one time only admit and restrict - proposal

Submitted by Jinoturistica on 4 October, 2007 - 21:43.
If you can prove more than 90% of your time in the last 2 years was spent in Nicaragua, have a Nicaraguan police report and pay your taxes, get a one time offer of fast path residency.

Then limit tourists to 90 days in any 6 months. No renewals. minimum outside country 30 days - enforced. You want to come here and live - do it right and don't play around.

Logic

You have a passport and needed to prove identity in the US to get it so trash the birth certificate requirement. You have been in the country long enough to infect anyone and/or incur health care coverage - water under the bridge, trash the health certificate requirement. Nicaraguan police report is relevant, easy to obtain and already in Spanish.

Go for it Daniel.

Tony

Tony's proposal

Submitted by BlackEagle on 5 October, 2007 - 00:30.

"limit tourists to 90 days in any 6 months. No renewals. minimum outside country 30 days - enforced."

WHY? you want them to spend money elsewhere? You don't like tourists spending money? They HAVE to stay out of the country for 30 days (spending their money elsewhere-presumably in neighboring Costa Rica)

Are they overstaying their welcome? Nicaragua doesn't need the money they spend? Maybe tourists should just forget Nicaragua if they get treated like that.Your sense of tourist business acumen is startling to say the least for a fellow thats involved in tourism.Ideas like that certainly will promote tourism in Nicaragua and it's friendly image.

Guess people who own property in Nicaragua and like to snowbird down there 6 months a year will like your ideas too.(" Jinoturista-You want to come here and live - do it right and don't play around") What about people who like to live in 2 places instead of just one? What exactly is your point in wanting to have people go through all kind of rigamorale just to hang out in Nicaragua and spend their hard-earned money?

OK. Reciprocity then

Submitted by Jinoturistica on 5 October, 2007 - 11:23.

Different proposal. hardnose.

US tourists will need a Nicaraguan visa, pay $800 to get it, prove they have link to the US such as tax returns, home ownership, own a business, have a bank account with money. Oh, and even then, 90% of 'tourists' should be arbitrarily rejected with no right of appeal. Thats just regular lie on a beach tourists.

If you want to live here in Nicaragua then you must return to your home country and do all the paperwork from there.

Its what the US do to Nicaraguans. What goes around comes around.

Tourists from Europe should also get reciprocal treatment. Come in any time, no visa needed, enjoy our wonderful country. Only tourists from hard line countries would have the high hoops to jump.

Residency is Simple by Comparison

Submitted by charliedawson on 4 October, 2007 - 15:23.

Let me start by saying that when compared with the paperwork and bureaucracy of a by-gone era, permanent residence is actually a relatively simple process. On my first trip to Nicaragua in 1969, I spent a day and a half in Managua (two different trips) just to extend my initial 30 day stay, and that included having friends in high places in some offices, and the appropriate bribes in those offices where we had no friends.

Now for the current process:

1. Many people, myself included, think the current process is fairly clear. Your unique circumstances were most likely never anticipated. They were expecting that a citizen of the US, for example, would have actually resided in the US, and I am quite sure that they actually expected a criminal history report from somewhere in the USA. Your refugee status was never considered. I suggest you consult a lawyer who actually deals with immigration issues. I think that you will find that they are much less shark-like than in the USA.

2. To offer this type of service in each department (or even in more than just Managua) right now would surely tax the system. This is new to them. Give it time. The individual departments can't even set up a uniform process for driver licenses and car registration. And you expect them to do immigration services too?

3. Would you want the office where you filed your papers to be responsible for everything? Have you ever (in your life) seen any process with an "almost right" system? Most likely you heard "get it right and come back". As far as I know, the criminal check and the health certificate are the only things that expire (and for good reason). The criminal check is good for 6 months, but I don't know about the health certificate. I don't see the real problem.

As for the state of California taking that long for a birth certificate, that can hardly be legislated or regulated by Nicaragua. But 11 to 15 weeks? Maybe it's not that bad after all. How long would you expect it to take to copy stone tablets?

In the end, for what you are trying to get done, get a trusted lawyer to help you if you aren't confident. It's money well spent.

Some good logical thoughts

Submitted by Marcela on 5 October, 2007 - 10:51.

Some good logical thoughts here, Charlie. And logic is definitely a requirement for securing the renewal of your cedula.

I personally find humor in the fact that every five years, the rules or requirements have changed just enough for you to miss a beat (or you have forgotten one small hoop) and that missed beat means a return trip to Managua.

I set it a major goal that one day before I die, I will walk through the renewal process in one trip. Har. Talk about the impossible dream.

My next renewal date is 2010, I'll announce success here if the one trip miracle happens. Stay tuned.

mm

Some clarifications

Submitted by fyl on 4 October, 2007 - 16:41.

On the police report, I read the law. It was very clear "everywhere you have lived in the last five years". The explanation varied with when you asked. By immigration in Managua, I or one of my lawyers was told:

  • That is correct--in your case you need Costa Rica and Nicaragua.
  • You only need Costa Rica
  • You need Costa Rica and US
  • You would only need Costa Rica if you had had residency there for three years but you only had it for two

In another conversation, one of my lawyers was told that I needed a health certificate from Costa Rica. An interesting (and made-up) requirement considering I did have residency there and never had any health check.

This "you get a different version each time you go to turn in the papers" issue is why I suggested the "almost right" status. They don't (necessarly) need to hold them--giving you a signed form that says "this is ok except" that would allow you to turn in the previous work with the exception addressed would work.

Even now there is a debate about when I am eligable for citizenship. The way the law is written it is very clear that the "normal" case is after having your permanent resident cédula for four years. But, if you are married to a Nicaraguan it says 1) have your permanent resident cédula, and 2) have lived here permanently for 2 years.

Was this written different on purpose? I have three legal opinions: 1) two years after receiving your permanent resident cédula, 2) you're set now and 3) who knows?

To me, these are the issues that need to be cleared up.

California Birth Certificates

Submitted by NicaNix on 4 October, 2007 - 15:59.

Actually, my grandaughter was in need of her birth certificate from California. We applied and it definitele did take 11 weeks for it to arrive!

NicaNix

Its ok

Submitted by Billy Bob on 4 October, 2007 - 14:33.

to keep the 90 day rule with unlimited CR trips because its good for people on aid projects, studying, snowbirds etc. Why go thru all the paperwork for stays of less than a year, etc. If you screw up (something criminal) the government can still deport you.

Where this falls apart is when you decide to stay and actually DO something here, It´s better to bite the bullet and get the cedula, especially for pensionados. I´m just starting the process but with a little coaching from the nice lady at Intur/ CAP it is all very straight forward. Lets see what the bureaucracy does to me in the real life! I´ll keep you posted.

Why a cedula? First, if you are living here for real, get with the program. Or do you want to be like 12,000,000 con artists in the US?

Practically, when you don´t have a cedula you are constantly jumping thru whoops, like only being able to open a bank account at certain banks, not getting a gun permit, not having a 2nd ID to get a loosey cell phone account, etc. Today´s adventure was I was stopped at a roadblock on the edge of town because my truck doesn´t have plates. Why not? Because the local transit police would only give plates to people with cedulas, so they gave me a 90 provisional registration with no plates. Motivation to get my cedula and get with the program. You betcha. I showed the regisration to the officer who was very polite and professional. I explained the situation to him and he took some notes on his clipboard and told me I also needed to get a Nica drivers license. No ticket nor solicitation for a bribe.

What is the law here? Who knows, but in the long run its easier for all to just get with the program.

Keep in mind that much of this may have nothing to do with the handful of pensionados in the country. With the C4 aggreement a zillion people from 3 other CA countries can wander around Nic at will, which must be causing some problems for law enforcement.

"Poverty is the best recycler"

I totally agree

Submitted by Doug on 5 October, 2007 - 00:21.

without a cedula you are at a major disadvantage. And yes it can be a pain in the ass to get all the documents. The wife and I have a lot of miles racked up getting all the papers in order.

We were told with autenticated US drivers license and concealed gun permit documentation you can get your Nicaraguan DL and gun permit with out the tests and exam.

We'll see how that works out in real life.

Doug-

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate